No to hunger


MoonManKelvin

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5 hours ago, PilotChan said:

Hunger = Challenge

Some humans love challenge and some dont.

Sorry, but you just don't get it. If there would only be an exploring and survival mode, I would definitely play the survival mode!

It's not about a challenge! I love challenges.

It's about logic! Please see the quote of  @erikinthebakery above.

 

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5 hours ago, PilotChan said:

Hunger = Challenge

I love challenges too. I welcome challenge. The harder the better. Read my profile for details.

Now what is it about the hunger mechanic, that couldn't be served by the current oxygen/energy management and natural threats that is so intriguing to you?

How is hunger specifically a challenge, when it is easily overcome by stuffing your face with food in the world? When is hunger the most challenging? When does hunger become less challenging? When does a hunger mechanic turn from challenging to tedium and an annoyance?

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54 minutes ago, ent|ty said:

I love challenges too. I welcome challenge. The harder the better. Read my profile for details.

Now what is it about the hunger mechanic, that couldn't be served by the current oxygen/energy management and natural threats that is so intriguing to you?

How is hunger specifically a challenge, when it is easily overcome by stuffing your face with food in the world? When is hunger the most challenging? When does hunger become less challenging? When does a hunger mechanic turn from challenging to tedium and an annoyance?

Then why even have oxygen? thats an annoyance. why even have energy thats an annoyance aswell. actually lets just make a plain white world with just a zebra ball and call it "plain white game introducing zebra ball and astronaut"

 

on steam sale for 9.99$

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So let me play devils advocate, and do that, hich I would have expected from the pro-hunger faction here (instead of throwing in vague words without any decription like farming, realism and challange) and try to come up with an interesting hunger mechanic, that tries to add to the current gameplay, without coming in the way, penalizing exploring to much or serve as a long term oxygen like system, and could fit the general Astroneers theme in my opinion.

The main Premises for this concept are:

1. Gameplay first: Add a rewarding and challenging mechanic without hindering gameplay

2. stay as optional as possible and only as forced as minimal possible

 

Instead of a simple stat for "hunger" this part is split up in different values for Proteins, Dairy, grain, vegtables and fruits. Those stats are not directly visible to the player, though a suit addon that keeps track of what the player consumes would be imaginable, and maybe even preferable. This way those who want to min max it have to pay for it with valuable backpack space. The break up into different stats instead of a simple "hunger" bar allows for a more intresting farming and buffing system, which I will come back to. We assume that the most basic food need is fullfilled by the spacesuit technology. If you don't want the added challenge, you don't need to, but participating will have some benefits, that will depend on how varied your diet is. Furthermore different planetary environments will make it more difficult to fullfill the needs to the maximum, so the player can claim the bragging rights to have maxed his food for x days under the hardest conditions. This could further be supplemented with Achievements etc. Typically these players love their achievements.

While players that don't participate are not penalized, and can continue their normal gameplay, Players that participate can earn different buffs. These buffs are tied to the different food categories. ie having eaten lots of fruits could make you faster, while drinking lots of milk (and thus dairy) could make you more resilient to fall damage (because of the calcium, which is good for your bones, my grandma told me so. ;P). Those buffs grow exponential to the amount of food of that category you have eaten. Having only eaten one apple does give you barely anything, keeping your bar at max has a very big effect. Either new buffs could be added for having a combination of bars at max, or the effects could be further amplified.

To make things not to easy, you can only eat so much per time period. This could be modified by your activities, but not neccessarily.

About Farming. Each planet has only a subset of the food categories. Furthermore some of them might be easier found in deep caves, and some are easier found on the top of mountains. Have the best sources of the respective categories be hard to find. Furthermore all thigns only grow under certain conditions. There shouldn't be a way to just set up a big farm on terran and be set for max food values. If at all, getting all your food stuff growing in one place, should be a massive undertaking, that needs a lot of work, exploring and research.

 

Well, this is the basic concept. Certainly incomplete in some regards, but it should give a good Idea, how to make an interesting system that is not just a more long tterm version of oxygen.

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26 minutes ago, PilotChan said:

Then why even have oxygen? thats an annoyance. why even have energy thats an annoyance aswell. actually lets just make a plain white world with just a zebra ball and call it "plain white game introducing zebra ball and astronaut"

 

on steam sale for 9.99$

Pushing things to the extreme, is not a way to give credence to your point.

 

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2 minutes ago, Frigidman said:

Pushing things to the extreme, is not a way to give credence to your point.

 

my point is if its such a problem to feed yourself then why breath. also its not like your making yourself a five star meal to eat. maybe create a synthesizer to use for organic and it can be put through a tether line 

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46 minutes ago, RustyXXL said:

So let me play devils advocate, and do that, hich I would have expected from the pro-hunger faction here (instead of throwing in vague words without any decription like farming, realism and challange) and try to come up with an interesting hunger mechanic, that tries to add to the current gameplay, without coming in the way, penalizing exploring to much or serve as a long term oxygen like system, and could fit the general Astroneers theme in my opinion.

The main Premises for this concept are:

1. Gameplay first: Add a rewarding and challenging mechanic without hindering gameplay

2. stay as optional as possible and only as forced as minimal possible

 

Instead of a simple stat for "hunger" this part is split up in different values for Proteins, Dairy, grain, vegtables and fruits. Those stats are not directly visible to the player, though a suit addon that keeps track of what the player consumes would be imaginable, and maybe even preferable. This way those who want to min max it have to pay for it with valuable backpack space. The break up into different stats instead of a simple "hunger" bar allows for a more intresting farming and buffing system, which I will come back to. We assume that the most basic food need is fullfilled by the spacesuit technology. If you don't want the added challenge, you don't need to, but participating will have some benefits, that will depend on how varied your diet is. Furthermore different planetary environments will make it more difficult to fullfill the needs to the maximum, so the player can claim the bragging rights to have maxed his food for x days under the hardest conditions. This could further be supplemented with Achievements etc. Typically these players love their achievements.

While players that don't participate are not penalized, and can continue their normal gameplay, Players that participate can earn different buffs. These buffs are tied to the different food categories. ie having eaten lots of fruits could make you faster, while drinking lots of milk (and thus dairy) could make you more resilient to fall damage (because of the calcium, which is good for your bones, my grandma told me so. ;P). Those buffs grow exponential to the amount of food of that category you have eaten. Having only eaten one apple does give you barely anything, keeping your bar at max has a very big effect. Either new buffs could be added for having a combination of bars at max, or the effects could be further amplified.

To make things not to easy, you can only eat so much per time period. This could be modified by your activities, but not neccessarily.

About Farming. Each planet has only a subset of the food categories. Furthermore some of them might be easier found in deep caves, and some are easier found on the top of mountains. Have the best sources of the respective categories be hard to find. Furthermore all thigns only grow under certain conditions. There shouldn't be a way to just set up a big farm on terran and be set for max food values. If at all, getting all your food stuff growing in one place, should be a massive undertaking, that needs a lot of work, exploring and research.

 

Well, this is the basic concept. Certainly incomplete in some regards, but it should give a good Idea, how to make an interesting system that is not just a more long tterm version of oxygen.

just a TL;DR but basically have food bars without adding the effects of death via hunger. 

 

so if you eat a alien fruit you get different buffs like resistance to poisen right? 

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1 minute ago, PilotChan said:

just a TL;DR but basically have food bars without adding the effects of death via hunger. 

 

so if you eat a alien fruit you get different buffs like resistance to poisen right? 

Never said it's that creative. ;)

And the main point is to add a challenge with more complexity and depth than just "eat or die", because we already have that. There's no need to duplicate that just more long term. And one of the thoughts behind that is to be relatively easy to get into but make it really hard to master and make it a real effort to max your results.

In all games I've played so far food became a non-issue after a relatively short period, and there probably is a reason even so called survival games often feel the need to justify their hunger mechanics by adding buffs to food. This system adds the challange without the tedium for those that don't like it, is more long term, and doesn't need an extra gamemode. The only thing missing is the ability for those that need it, to feel superior to those that fail to manage their food.

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20 minutes ago, Wyvyrias said:

Added a  "controversial" tag + prefix to thread.

I can think of a number of posters who need this added to their name tags..

Hunger, adds depth, content to the game, through that content, further depth and content, farming, crossbreeding, buffs.

Current Oxygen System.. erm.. sprint, gather, sprint back.   Run tethers in long line, gather, walk back.   Deploy vehicle.. gather, drive back.

That's it folks.. same with power.. Hunger.. adds hunger, adds damage over time, adds farming, adds buffs, adds thirst and water.. Hunger alone adds more challenge to astroneer than oxygen and power ever could.

So if you actually want challenge, then you want hunger.. truth is.. you don't want challenge.  You want easy, you want someone else doing the driving, picking up the washing, doing the hoovering.. you just sit there, feel proud and do nothing.

*deletes insults*

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2 minutes ago, Martin said:

I can think of a number of posters who need this added to their name tags..

Hunger, adds depth, content to the game, through that content, further depth and content, farming, crossbreeding, buffs.

Current Oxygen System.. erm.. sprint, gather, sprint back.   Run tethers in long line, gather, walk back.   Deploy vehicle.. gather, drive back.

That's it folks.. same with power.. Hunger.. adds hunger, adds damage over time, adds farming, adds buffs, adds thirst and water.. Hunger alone adds more challenge to astroneer than oxygen and power ever could.

So if you actually want challenge, then you want hunger.. truth is.. you don't want challenge.  You want easy, you want someone else doing the driving, picking up the washing, doing the hoovering.. you just sit there, feel proud and do nothing.

*deletes insults*

No, I just don't feel challanged by something that becomes a mere "Stuff things in your mouth every x minutes" after a short period of time in pretty much all games I've played so far. That's why at least tried to come with a system that might add an actual challange and some more depth if implemented right, which is more than most others did so far, who simply say "hunger adds challange, hunger adds realism, hunger adds farming" without iterating on the how exactly this would be the case in their opinion.

I still would probably opt out of the system I myself proposed, because even in that form it wouldn't be a system I would be that interested in, but it is the best I could come up with when talking about hunger.

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3 minutes ago, RustyXXL said:

No, I just don't feel challanged by something that becomes a mere "Stuff things in your mouth every x minutes" after a short period of time in pretty much all games I've played so far. That's why at least tried to come with a system that might add an actual challange and some more depth if implemented right, which is more than most others did so far, who simply say "hunger adds challange, hunger adds realism, hunger adds farming" without iterating on the how exactly this would be the case in their opinion.

I still would probably opt out of the system I myself proposed, because even in that form it wouldn't be a system I would be that interested in, but it is the best I could come up with when talking about hunger.

Noone is saying you need to stuff food in your mouth every xx minutes.

As for how hunger is balanced.. that's a balance issue.    It's more about the base idea, what does hunger bring to the game.. what further mechanics could you add, what benefits outweigh the negatives.. eventually, doing the same thing over and over becomes a grind.. so find ways to negate the grind.. make it more interesting.  Make grinding fun.  Make challenges that don't involve grinding..

You're pulling 1 aspect of hunger out into the open, then objecting to everything it offers, because of this one aspect..

Whats the point in farming, if you dont eat anything?  The point of crossbreeding, the point of combination.. hell, why even play a game.. eventually people will just say that's too much, that's boring, that's too hard..

What if you only had to eat once say per 4 hours irl.  Unless you injured yourself.. for example.  Which is another aspect of hunger.. injury and the ability to heal by eating food.  The ability to make medkits to heal in the field or heal bigger injuries, the ability to use byproducts to make other crafting components.. it all has a basis in hunger.. it all stems from that.   Remove hunger you remove everything else.   How can you make healing packs or components from farming if you dont eat? Doesn't make sense.

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I like your devils advocate suggestion.  I'd add only that overthinking it maybe abit.  I like a simpler idea, food bar lasts from empty to full say 4 hours irl.  Unless you sprint alot, take damage from falling or hits from plants.. then it runs out faster.. so if you're a bad player.. you eat more food, a good tactical careful player eat less.

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1 minute ago, Martin said:

Noone is saying you need to stuff food in your mouth every xx minutes.

As for how hunger is balanced.. that's a balance issue.    It's more about the base idea, what does hunger bring to the game.. what further mechanics could you add, what benefits outweigh the negatives.. eventually, doing the same thing over and over becomes a grind.. so find ways to negate the grind.. make it more interesting.  Make grinding fun.  Make challenges that don't involve grinding..

You're pulling 1 aspect of hunger out into the open, then objecting to everything it offers, because of this one aspect..

Whats the point in farming, if you dont eat anything?  The point of crossbreeding, the point of combination.. hell, why even play a game.. eventually people will just say that's too much, that's boring, that's too hard..

What if you only had to eat once say per 4 hours irl.  Unless you injured yourself.. for example.  Which is another aspect of hunger.. injury and the ability to heal by eating food.  The ability to make medkits to heal in the field or heal bigger injuries, the ability to use byproducts to make other crafting components.. it all has a basis in hunger.. it all stems from that.   Remove hunger you remove everything else.   How can you make healing packs or components from farming if you dont eat? Doesn't make sense.

Farming can be done for many reasons, I've already said that many times, and even given a couple of examples. Farming is independent from hunger. You want further proof? Look at Stardew Valley, Harvest Moon, the Farming Simulator Series....there are plenty of games that even have their main focus on farming without the need for hunger mechanics. And there are even more games that add a farming mechanic as a beneficial thing to do in your downtime. World of Warcraft, Starbound etc. Even in Minecraft you can disable hunger by playing peaceful and still you can farm (and a lot of people do build extensive farms, even though they technically don't need to).

Farming is fun, that alone is justification enough for farming in games. Because the main goal of games is to be fun.

Yet I personally don't know any game that has hunger-management as its single or even major (like 90%) focus of gameplay. and even most of the survival games feel the need to make hunger about buffing or healing yourself and not about satisfying your hunger, which for me is kinda telling.

Healing and buffing can be done (and has been done since the dawn of videogames with different means than eating either, and both on their own don't justify a hunger mechanic either.

Yet  you keep repeating those points, as if they became true just by repeating them often enough.

The Hunger mechanic itself is in no way something that adds to the game. Farming does. Buffing does. Health does, but each of them can be done (and have successfully been done) without hungermechanics.

Hunger mechanics on the contrary have devolved in most games I have seen to a simple "stuff things in your mouth every xx minutes or you'll die",, and furthermore in most games I've played hunger became a none-issue after 30 mins to 1h max. That's really boring and uninspired to me. Maybe I just didn't play the games that did hunger right, that's entire possible, but if so, please, please, please educate me.

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6 minutes ago, Martin said:

I like your devils advocate suggestion.  I'd add only that overthinking it maybe abit.  I like a simpler idea, food bar lasts from empty to full say 4 hours irl.  Unless you sprint alot, take damage from falling or hits from plants.. then it runs out faster.. so if you're a bad player.. you eat more food, a good tactical careful player eat less.

Makng it an optional gameplay mechanic allows for that "overthinking" to add the challange for thoose that want the challange. It is ment to be a complex gameplay mechanic "easy to get into, but very hard to master". That's kinda my general idea of how good gameplay mechanics should work.

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Yes, but my point is, why do we have farming, if we don't eat.  

Why not just call it making stuff, lets call it warehousing.   The art of collection.  Simwarehouse.  

We have farming, because we eat, we eat because we're hungry.  Being able to turn it off.. defeats the point.

You cannot have potions, healing, farming, without hunger.. you're saying you can, but you can't, you're just switching hunger off.

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Rusty, I think you're stuck in this mindset that there's only one tedious way to implement hunger, as are others, and that's to get in the way of playing the game. That's a dim view that's only one way to look at the situation, and it's safe to say the devs don't have that intention. There are millions of ways to approach a hunger implementation that can make for useful and engaging gameplay.

I say we should be using our time to find ways to support the devs and to make it work, as it's already on the roadmap.

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8 minutes ago, travin said:

Rusty, I think you're stuck in this mindset that there's only one tedious way to implement hunger, as are others, and that's to get in the way of playing the game. That's a dim view that's only one way to look at the situation, and it's safe to say the devs don't have that intention. There are millions of ways to approach a hunger implementation that can make for useful and engaging gameplay.

I say we should be using our time to find ways to support the devs and to make it work, as it's already on the roadmap.

Best way to support the devs is to shut our mouths, pretty much.

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2 minutes ago, ent|ty said:

Best way to support the devs is to shut our mouths, pretty much.

Not at all. They're very enthusiast about our support <--- key word

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12 minutes ago, Martin said:

Yes, but my point is, why do we have farming, if we don't eat.  

Why not just call it making stuff, lets call it warehousing.   The art of collection.  Simwarehouse.  

We have farming, because we eat, we eat because we're hungry.  Being able to turn it off.. defeats the point.

You cannot have potions, healing, farming, without hunger.. you're saying you can, but you can't, you're just switching hunger off.

Diablo 1 already had potions, without farming, without hunger without all that. How we call it is pretty irellevant, as long as it is the same thing we do.

Doom 1 had health pack...without any hunger mechanic....there are plenty of examples, of all those mechanics without hunger in gaming. You repeating the opposite doesn't make it true.

9 minutes ago, travin said:

Rusty, I think you're stuck in this mindset that there's only one tedious way to implement hunger, as are others, and that's to get in the way of playing the game. That's a dim view that's only one way to look at the situation, and it's safe to say the devs don't have that intention. There are millions of ways to approach a hunger implementation that can make for useful and engaging gameplay.

I say we should be using our time to find ways to support the devs and to make it work, as it's already on the roadmap.

I'm in that mindset, because that's all I ever experienced, and as that's all I have experienced yet, and don't get any answer to my questions about how to make it interesting, this isn't changed yet. If Astroneer will do better yay for the devs, until then, I keep sceptic about that and feel free to say, if you do it the way shown in so many other ways, I can live without that, thanks, but no thanks. And actually I've already gone a step further and have outlined a concept, that does make it more interesting.

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Look at this a different way.   I don't know which thread I'm in, but this points to both :)

You injure yourself.  Now in some games, you just stand still and heal slowly.

In others you drink a potion and magically heal.  Yippeee..

In others you have to sleep to regenerate. 

IRL You can just stand still, sit down, regenerate.  But this uses up your bodies energy.  That has to be replaced.  Or you will die. From hunger..

Just because some games switch it off, doesn't mean it isn't there.  Sure you get SimFarmer.. but those games don't have a dude in it getting shot at, tripping over rocks and falling into caves and getting hurt.  They don't need to eat.  Therefore there's no need for a hunger mechanic.

So whilst you can make farms, grow fruit etc you don't need to eat..

But in a survival game.. you can be injured, you can be exhausted, you do use stamina, you take damage from attacks.

How do you heal? Oh you just breath.. yeh makes total sense.  Breath in, breath out, breath in...and out.

So in Astroneer, you run into a cave acid rains down on you.. you take injury, but you don't die.  And somehow you miraculously don't need to eat.  Because there's no hunger in the game.   You sprint to that big shiny glittery thing 500m away.. you grab a huge box, drag it all the way back to your base, you're exhausted.. 

But you didn't use stamina, because we don't have hunger mechanics in the game.  You just floated it all the way back, whilst sprinting.

I'm sorry.. But you think that's fun?   A survival game needs hunger mechanics.  If it's in space it needs an breathing mechanic. If it's underwater it needs a breathing mechanic.

It's not about realism as much as necessity, immersion.

But more than this, hunger isn't just about being hungry it's not about eating at specific times, its all the other stuff thats added as well.  Tons of content is sitting in the wings wait to be added but it needs a basis for being added.  That basis is hunger.  Everything stems from it, in relation to the idea of a survival game.

Sure, you could switch it off.. but then, you'd not be playing a survival game.  Because you're removing the survival part.  The essence of surviving includes eating, drinking, breathing, healing..

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7 minutes ago, ent|ty said:

Best way to support the devs is to shut our mouths, pretty much.

 

4 minutes ago, travin said:

Not at all. They're very enthusiast about our support <--- key word

Actually, best way is to keep it constructive.

All the arguing in this thread is one of the things that makes me skip posts.

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Just now, RustyXXL said:

And actually I've already gone a step further and have outlined a concept, that does make it more interesting.

Very cool. I'll have to look back and read up, I haven't seen it.

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1 minute ago, RustyXXL said:

Diablo 1 already had potions, without farming, without hunger without all that. How we call it is pretty irellevant, as long as it is the same thing we do.

Doom 1 had health pack...without any hunger mechanic....there are plenty of examples, of all those mechanics without hunger in gaming. You repeating the opposite doesn't make it true.

I'm sorry, but you're EATING A HEALTH POTION. That's your hunger mechanic right there.

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1 minute ago, Martin said:

I'm sorry, but you're EATING A HEALTH POTION. That's your hunger mechanic right there.

Unreal.. now potions are a 'hunger mechanic'.  This is what we deal with nowadays.

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