Ishtu

The Exchange platform "breaks" the game

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Hi !

First of all, thank you for this very nice game ! (Then, sorry for the rest, my English is not really good) There are some bugs, but nothing very annoiying with the regular backup.
Anyway, after about 5 hours to explore my planet and a giant cave, I crafted the "Exchange platform" later. You know, the small ship that allows to exchange resources against others.

Before yelling, it's just an information, not a trick to make your party more easier and bored .
This information allows you to stay in your base and collect all resources without moving from just three platforms... It breaks the game's total interest, you don't have to go out to collection any resources, the ships gives you all of this.

Indeed, just make two platforms (one is okay, but with 2, it will be faster) that provide fuel as well as platform with Exchange platform. Then just connect to power, with a solar panel and a battery, or with the wind turbine. Spend the all day on the fuel machine with the solar panel, and with two storages on each platform, you can store 16 fuels per plateform. So you have 32 fuels at the end of the day if you build 2 and 48 if you build 2 storage in the exchange platform. 

At night, you either use the battery or the wind turbine. If you have enough fuel, go and exchange that fuel for resources. That is to say that 4 fuels provide you with 8 common resources and with 8 fuels, 4 or 2 rare resources.

You just have to chain it all up, putting it all in stock and you have unlimited resources for free and without moving.
It's really not fun at all, but it's exist...


I think you should modify the Exchange platform. Maybe to remove rare resources or increase the cost and lower those received in return.
With this current platform, there is no longer any interest in going out to collect the resources in the magnificent caverns or planets... You just have to build this plateforms and wait. 

I know this is not the goal of this game, but why you have to drive with your truck all the day when you just have to spend fuel and wait rare ressources ? This is dumb. In my opinion, the exchange platform shoud be used for spend resources on an other planet, but not nowhere and return with this stuff.

This is an exemple in my 1st base :
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/50/1481933013-sans-titre-2.png
(it's my first base, so, that's really weird and not really optimized)

Edited by Ishtu

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I also discovered this imbalance with fuel as I was in need of compound in a bad way and just tried fuel to find out it was balanced wrong. Because you can basically make resources for "free" it is handy but I did just want to farm fuel for a while to get some things going that took copper (hard to find). I think because it is so "common" giving it a "value" of 1 or 1 compound would make it so that the balance is better, except there could be some kind of "Apple App Store" 20-30% cut for the trade. Real life commision shops do this type of thing. I also think the trade ship should use fuel or at least a large amount of power only to recharge after the ship comes back.

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I was about to post the same.

With 2 fuelstations and the exchanger(+some batteries and solars) u have the fastest resource gathering there is in the game.

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Yup, this unfortunately works. Also just mining the spore plants to get ridiculous amounts of research pods and turning it into Titanium and Lithium and trading them too. Too much flora in the caves methinks. Maybe make it so the more pods of the same type you research the less valuable resources you get.

 

Managed to get everything I could possibly need without leaving the planet.

Edited by Fishpit

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29 minutes ago, Fishpit said:

Yup, this unfortunately works. Also just mining the spore plants to get ridiculous amounts of research pods and turning it into Titanium and Lithium and trading them too. Too much flora in the caves methinks. Maybe make it so the more pods of the same type you research the less valuable resources you get.

 

Managed to get everything I could possibly need without leaving the planet.

I used all the fruits/research pods from the trees i spawned near to get stuff to trade as well. perhaps adding categories for research pods, not affecting what they unlock, but what they give once you've scanned a pod of that type, like pods off trees giving organic, roots giving synthetic, something like that.

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Dont quote me on this, if you fill in the ground of which you just mined (e.g. compound) i believe it grows/forms back which i guess isnt really bad, but that means you dont really have to venture out across the planets

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Agreed I don't like how it is.  We shouldn't be able to not leave our bases and generate resources.  A simple fix would be to have hydrozine cost resources to build, which I think it would cost more than just power.

Edited by Serlo

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One day I will understand why people demand a game cater only to their personal play style and not allow for play in other ways.

You know, in case someone wanted to run or play their game as a trading empire and not a driving simulator.

If you want to strike out from your base and go driving into the hither and yon, go do it. At an early stage of the game, someone absolutely needs to get out and explore if only so that they get enough research to actually be able to make those devices and construct those vehicles. After that point? Why do you care? If you're into the exploration part of things, if you're driving off into the middle of nowhere, continue doing it. You obviously don't want to stay in your base doing anything. If someone else wants to stay in their base for a little while and simply generate materials while building up tools and mechanisms – why do you care?

"One Way to Play" is one of the most pernicious design toxins that has been kicking around a lot of survival games. It leads to there being only one mechanism to engage with the game and narrows the audience to only those people who want to play it in one way. When there's only one way to play a game, it means that if anyone else builds a game with a very similar one way to play – or worse, one of many ways to play that they offer – the first game suffers and very likely dies.

Trust me, it does you no harm if someone else wants to spend time hanging out in their base farming resources. I absolutely guarantee it will not impact your play whatsoever.

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You've got the wrong end of the stick here bud. We're just saying it's far too easy to progress by doing it this way. Progression should be a hard task rather than being able to spam resources and get to "end game" stuff within 20 minutes of play. It feels kinda cheaty.

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1 minute ago, Fishpit said:

You've got the wrong end of the stick here bud. We're just saying it's far too easy to progress by doing it this way. Progression should be a hard task rather than being able to spam resources and get to "end game" stuff within 20 minutes of play. It feels kinda cheaty.

 

Now, I think I have the exact right end of the stick. And I can prove it from your own text.

"Progression should be a hard task rather than being able to spam resources and get to "end game" stuff within 20 minutes of play."

That is, observationally and definitionally, saying how other people should be able to play. Not only that, but it's wrong. You don't get in the game technology without going out and finding the actual research modules to let you build that stuff. I'd argue that it takes a lot longer than 20 minutes unless you get profoundly lucky.

You have literally stated that it is "too easy to progress," and that's is both factually incorrect and telling other people that their preferred way to play is wrong.

I reiterate, if you want to go out and ramble around digging up resources – go do that. I would submit that especially in a pre-alpha build where you intend and expect players to be able to tinker with a wide variety of the very limited build options in the game, it behooves you to allow those people who actually want to do things access to the resources that it takes to do them. Beyond that, supporting a play style which focuses on trade instead of digging holes should probably be a design idea that's kept.

The game isn't even in alpha. It is nowhere near a complete survival experience. It's nowhere near a point at which a complete survival experience should even be desired, much less expected. It is way ahead of a point at which "it's too easy" should be entering anyone's head as any part of an argument.

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5 minutes ago, SquidLord said:

One day I will understand why people demand a game cater only to their personal play style and not allow for play in other ways.

You know, in case someone wanted to run or play their game as a trading empire and not a driving simulator.

If you want to strike out from your base and go driving into the hither and yon, go do it. At an early stage of the game, someone absolutely needs to get out and explore if only so that they get enough research to actually be able to make those devices and construct those vehicles. After that point? Why do you care? If you're into the exploration part of things, if you're driving off into the middle of nowhere, continue doing it. You obviously don't want to stay in your base doing anything. If someone else wants to stay in their base for a little while and simply generate materials while building up tools and mechanisms – why do you care?

"One Way to Play" is one of the most pernicious design toxins that has been kicking around a lot of survival games. It leads to there being only one mechanism to engage with the game and narrows the audience to only those people who want to play it in one way. When there's only one way to play a game, it means that if anyone else builds a game with a very similar one way to play – or worse, one of many ways to play that they offer – the first game suffers and very likely dies.

Trust me, it does you no harm if someone else wants to spend time hanging out in their base farming resources. I absolutely guarantee it will not impact your play whatsoever.

hey Lord,

those mentionings about the trade are not about restricting different playstyles.

i see your point in: " let the people play as they want"! so let them.

i think the point here to make is, that for longtermsmotivation and chellange also pve/sandbox-games have to get balance.

i am not shure how deep u are in the game, but that "method" is not about a i play from a trading perspective. then prices would be matched with efford u have to put in for producing or gathering, or even quantities on the market ect... this "methode" is about endless everything without moving in shortest time.

of course u are always free to play as u want, but giving a chalange and a not too easy task is often the goal for devs of a SURVIVAL/SANDBOX game. 

as far as i have experienced.

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I'm sure the game will get balanced for multiple play styles eventually.   Just needs some creative thinking and possible game style selection at the start of a game?

 

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43 minutes ago, rbrucemtl said:

I'm sure the game will get balanced for multiple play styles eventually.   Just needs some creative thinking and possible game style selection at the start of a game?

 

 

Given that "creative mode" things are on the Trello already, I'm absolutely certain that they already have ideas for how to balance things.

As players, it's ridiculous for someone to suggest "the trade port is broken" or "the exchange platform breaks the game" to explicitly quote the subject line – because there's not that much of the game to break in the first place, it's still in pre-alpha, and to even make that decision requires an endless amount of knowledge about what's to come that simply does not exist outside of the developers' heads.

The entire premise of this thread is ludicrous.

But worse, threads like this pop up in every single forum about every single new game that comes out in Early Access, pre-alpha, alpha – hell, they come up in discussions of very, very vague potential games. After a few decades, it just gets old. I may have proceeded under the mistaken impression that people would eventually actually learn why such things are ludicrous and ridiculous, and the reason that the underlying motivations are pretty much always toxic for games.

I expected too much. That's clearly on me. I apologize.

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It's the fact that you can create 3 platforms. 1 trade, 2 fuel condensers. 

Fuel condensers require power and make Hydrazine out of thin air. Rinse and repeat 4 times for 8 Hydrazine. Send off on the trade port and get resources. It's not really trading, it's just spamming fuel condensers for free resources.

 

Get off your high horse. Please.

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I totally agree with Ishtu, Fuel Condenser in current shape totally spoil the game. In my opinion it should be changed with one of options below:

1. extend the time of creating one tank of hydrazine - I mean really extend. You start the processing, then go explore/harvest and when you come back, your new tank of hydrazine is waiting.

2. extend the time of charging Fuel condenser's energy bar - similar to above. You plug in your Fuel Condenser to some power source, then go explore/harvest and when come back, you can process one tank of hydrazine in few seconds.

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Just to say it, I think it actually adds to the playability of the game... I don't know how much time you have spent on other planets, but half of them don't even have compound or resin, most have hydrazine but not all of them (from what I have explored-and I've been to them all). And even if they do all have resources it is clear that they are much less abundant than on the "Terran" planet.

Because of this it actually makes sense that they would keep this "exploit" in the game because it allows people to get resources that would otherwise be completely unavailable on other planets.

I do agree that it makes the game a little easy if you choose to exploit it early on, but if that bothers you, just don't use it!

Along with that, it seems to me that the most efficient way to solve this problem would be to add different levels of difficulty when making a new world. And the secs have added this feature to their roadmap.

In any case I would say that it is very innapropriate to say that the platform "breaks" the game as all you have to do is avoid using this exploit and the platform works just fine.

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I don't think the trade platform itself is broken, obviously some of the resources just need to be tweaked to be worth more/less on the market. If we're able to synthesize something out of thin air for very little cost, then that object shouldn't be worth such a high value.

So either we can increase the effort required to synthesize certain resources (iirc you can also -find- Hydrazine underground), or make them worth less.
Ideally we just make them harder to synthesize. Lowering the value in general de-values people who go digging in caves to find it.

 

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2 hours ago, Fishpit said:

It's the fact that you can create 3 platforms. 1 trade, 2 fuel condensers. 

Fuel condensers require power and make Hydrazine out of thin air. Rinse and repeat 4 times for 8 Hydrazine. Send off on the trade port and get resources. It's not really trading, it's just spamming fuel condensers for free resources.

 

Get off your high horse. Please.

All you have to do is not use the exploit and all the problems go away. For right now it's the best way to allow people to progress in late game as in many cases certain resources are all but impossible to locate on other planets...

No one is on a high horse here but you, as you think it necessary to change the entire platform and condenser mechanic simply because you don't want others to be able to "exploit" it. 

I challenge you to make a functional colony on the arid planet without using this to your advantage as it will undoubtedly take far longer than many people want to spend grinding resources and flying back and forth.

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2 minutes ago, Zio Matrix said:

I don't think the trade platform itself is broken, obviously some of the resources just need to be tweaked to be worth more/less on the market. If we're able to synthesize something out of thin air for very little cost, then that object shouldn't be worth such a high value.

So either we can increase the effort required to synthesize certain resources (iirc you can also -find- Hydrazine underground), or make them worth less.
Ideally we just make them harder to synthesize. Lowering the value in general de-values people who go digging in caves to find it.

 

I think this is a start however as I have mentioned prior it becomes increasingly difficult to find any sort of ore at all as you travel to further planets, so I that regard it helps those who are on planets with limited resources.

 

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1 minute ago, Lacvir said:

I think this is a start however as I have mentioned prior it becomes increasingly difficult to find any sort of ore at all as you travel to further planets, so I that regard it helps those who are on planets with limited resources.

 

This is what it should do, though, help people. Being able to make things with nothing but power shouldn't be the go-to method for obtaining everything.
If things aren't changed in some way, then going out to get things becomes pointless. I'm not saying synthesizing things and then selling them should be nerfed out of existence, i'm just saying it shouldn't be so easy to do that it removes any reason to go out and mine.

There's a balance somewhere, i'm sure. I've personally not run into any issues with going out and mining what I need.

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1 minute ago, Zio Matrix said:

This is what it should do, though, help people. Being able to make things with nothing but power shouldn't be the go-to method for obtaining everything.
If things aren't changed in some way, then going out to get things becomes pointless. I'm not saying synthesizing things and then selling them should be nerfed out of existence, i'm just saying it shouldn't be so easy to do that it removes any reason to go out and mine.

There's a balance somewhere, i'm sure. I've personally not run into any issues with going out and mining what I need.

Maybe make it produce a different substance, for example "compressed fuel" and make it worth less but still abundant enough.

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Some common resources are rare in other planets? Then change the price according to rarity! Make prices in Trade Platform unique for each type of planet, depending on mineral abundance. Just like in real life - market economy, baby ;-) But nerf that Fuel Condenser, this thing causes all the trouble, not Trade Platform.

Edited by Tomash

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The Trade Platform/Fuel Condenser as-is are practically required if you're going to do anything at all on some of the planets. Barren/Arid/Radioactive/Exotic planets all have basically nothing in the way of Compound/Resin resources(I've found SOME sometimes, but they're very rare), and if you're trying to set up a base on those planets without a Spaceship(As in, only a Shuttle) then the only way to get resources to that planet, without using the shuttle over and over(Which requires fuel which is part of the 'problem') is to trade for them with the platform.

The game doesn't seem to care about 'balance', it cares about exploring and adventuring. The Trade Platform/Fuel Condenser don't prevent you from exploring OR adventuring.

I say leave them as is, unless you want to add resin and compound to every single planet available.

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