backnorth

I don't know about this 'scrap' thing.

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  With all the wreckage around the game has kinda lost the "unknown frontier" feel. The whole solar system is more like the middle east, anywhere you dig, you find someone's old trash...….

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Well you're not forced.  You don't have to use the trader at all.

The trader is used in parcel with the shredder now.  The shredder produces scrap, you can then trade that scrap for useful items via the trader.

Noone is forcing you to do anything.  If you want to load the game up and sit there staring into space.. that's your choice.

Try it at home.  See how long you last, before you're forced to go and get food outside your home.  It's the same in astroneer, you want something, you have to actually go and get it.

Nothing in life is handed to you on a plate, you actually have to go and get it yourself.

Edited by Martin

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you could pay attention to what your reading martin. I was referring to the wrecks. and computer games aren't the same thing as life for your information. im sure you will understand these things when you mature a bit.

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The scrap could be tonned down a bit, but to my knowledge it's most heavy on Terran and Barren. Arid and Exotic seem completely without wreckage, comparatively. Although, the game is about a gold rush, and since people are headed to the same territory, a large number of explorers mush have found not quite what they expected in the dirt. Maybe a little more story will shed light on why there is so much scrap. Of course, without much diversity in flora and fauna, the game is quite boring without infrequent points of interest besides raw materials. Natives might come to replace much of those seed generations spots in due time.

Edited by Wedge

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26 minutes ago, backnorth said:

could introduce the selling of high end production goods..like diamond.

Yeah, I previously mentioned a mineral that is a source of platinum. Played would smelt it and use it exclusively for trade. Coincidentally, that metal is the reason humans in reality might go into space - for asteroid mining - as platinum is one of the few materials that could possibly offset the gargantuan cost of space travel. That because it can be found in large amounts in planetoids and asteroids, as it was just atomically heavy enough to escape being blown away in massive portions during  accretion, but light enough to have not settled to the core of most planets in tremendous amounts. But heck, and rare material could do.

26 minutes ago, backnorth said:

could introduce the selling of high end production goods..like diamond.

Yeah, I previously mentioned a mineral that is a source of platinum. Played would smelt it and use it exclusively for trade. Coincidentally, that metal is the reason humans in reality might go into space - for asteroid mining - as platinum is one of the few materials that could possibly offset the gargantuan cost of space travel. That because it can be found in large amounts in planetoids and asteroids, as it was just atomically heavy enough to escape being blown away in massive portions during  accretion, but light enough to have not settled to the core of most planets in tremendous amounts. But heck, and rare material could do.

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Hmmm, posting from mobile seems to have duplicated the content of my message... ?

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7 hours ago, backnorth said:

you could pay attention to what your reading martin. I was referring to the wrecks. and computer games aren't the same thing as life for your information. im sure you will understand these things when you mature a bit.

When I mature abit I'll be older than your grandfather.

Wrecks cannot be shredded so therefore are not scappable.  Therefore, not the topic.

Oh and I wasn't responding to you. Which you might have guessed if you'd read my post in context.

Everything is modelled from life.  IRL life.  Otherwise we wouldn't be able to identify it.

Edited by Martin

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I'm looking forward to what they do with the whole trade thing. I'm sure it will settle into an equilibrium like the rest of the game.

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53 minutes ago, Martin said:

When I mature abit I'll be older than your grandfather.

Wrecks cannot be shredded so therefore are not scappable.  Therefore, not the topic.

Oh and I wasn't responding to you. Which you might have guessed if you'd read my post in context.

Everything is modelled from life.  IRL life.  Otherwise we wouldn't be able to identify it.

All my grandparents are dead so, RIP Martin.

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1 hour ago, backnorth said:

All my grandparents are dead so, RIP Martin.

I pressed all my F keys, to respect.

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On 9/15/2018 at 4:38 PM, Capt_Harpoon said:

Agree, and since it's the only currency now accepted at the trading station we are all forced to scavange for scrap

Scavenging for scrap is completely optional and not required for progression. You don't even need to build a shredder. Maybe when the game releases the shredder/trade platform might serve a higher purpose, but as of right now, shredding/trading is entirely optional. You will find plenty of resources much faster by hopping to another planet than driving around Terran looking for scrap and shredding every little piece you find.

I do, however, like finding abandoned bases and wrecks. They hold plenty of goodies. I even set up camp if I find a base with a shuttle dock. Planets with nothing but rocks and trees are just uninteresting.

On 9/15/2018 at 1:22 PM, backnorth said:

The whole solar system is more like the middle east, anywhere you dig, you find someone's old trash...….

Someone might call that "archaeology"...

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13 hours ago, vvhorus said:

Someone might call that "archaeology"...

yes, someone just might call it that.

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When I encounter such a sandbox game, I start playing it in different ways.

In Minecraft I used to setup rules how to survive. Sometime I was eating only mushrooms, until they made them way to easy to find. Then I was using the command line to make permanent night...

In Astroneer, in 0.9.2.0, I tried also to survive without damaging the surface. The challenge was to install onto my tool the Inhibitor Mod. If you do that from the beginning, you will never be able to pick up any scrap.

I agree, such rules require some discipline to stick to them. Some people would like the game to offer hard barriers. They want to beat the game.

Maybe finding the wrecks should be just the 1st part. The second would be to think how to approach the site. The last 100m to it could require some effort.

-----

Regarding the scrap, I have mixed feelings.

  • Sometime I use it to avoid grinding for resources I know I can get anyways. So it is ok when I want to progress faster
  • But is way to easy to obtain it to have a sense of achievement
  • if I am missing some tech and if wrecks would be rare, discovering one could bring some excitement. But maybe I would never find them. And there are moments when I do not want to be forced to explore. I was looking once out the window in Subnautica, to some distress signal, and I was thinking: why am I doing this? Is this what the game is about? To do what developers want?

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Hmms, the whole salvage thing is a bit tricky.  If the salvageable bits are too rare then it's not worth building the shredder and the trade station.  I kinda fell the same as the OP, the wrecks are a bit too common right now.

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It really depends on your games rng load, sometimes there's shedloads of wrecks, sometimes there's almost none.

I get the feeling tho, that the number has been increased purposefully to get feedback on the shredder, not intended as actual balance.  Same with base resources and research, everything is far too common.. again I think this is probably to generate feedback on the individual mechanics rather than the design systems.

Also it is fair to say that the systems in play, are not complete, partial or near, at the moment they're mostly just ideas in progress and until finalised all we can do is provide feedback in bug reports etc. All this demand for game changers based on a partial system, is really kinda pointless.

Edited by Martin

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right now scrap and trading is pretty hate-able. I'm pretty unhappy about the idea of this nebulous concept of 'scrap'. the wrecks kicking around must have been made of something, so i would expect salvaging them would yield real materials, not this 'scrap' nonsense.

there is one quick and dirty way to make 'scrap' more credible. make the chem lab accept scrap in it's recipes. you could approach this one of three ways:

1) create special recipes that include nuggets of scrap in them (bleah); or

2) have scrap nuggets be usable in recipes in replacement of certain other materials. refined materials such as iron and tungsten and glass might be replaced with scrap nuggets. make the recipes have a limit, such as only one scrap nugget per recipe. or

3) (and this is one i am favoring at the moment) make the chemlab also work like a recycling lab. put simply, you put two nuggets of scrap in, you press 'recycle', and the lab turns them into a random nugget of refined material or alloy. no raw materials or fuels, and the chance of getting a higher end, more complex alloy out of it. maybe you could 'game' the system by recycling three scrap nuggets at a time, increasing your chance of a single, higher value nugget. I would prefer this to the trade platform method, despite the trade platform arguably being a better value mechanism. this would just feel right. all those rover parts and spacecraft and satellite components should be full of titanium, plastic, glass, aluminum alloy and rubber.

you know, i never thought i'd say this but a part of me kinda misses the old mechanic where research would randomly produce a basebuilding component. frustrating tho it may have been, there was something about the fruit machine randomness that gave me a buzz. by introducing that randomness into the process of 'recycling' nuggets, we could regain some of that without being hamstrung by it.

any thoughts?

Edited by Bron

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18 minutes ago, Bron said:

right now scrap and trading is pretty hate-able. I'm pretty unhappy about the idea of this nebulous concept of 'scrap'

...

any thoughts?

I can see why this idea is off putting, especially because something comprised exclusively of resin or compound yields the same type of scrap as something made of lithium or tungsten.

In reality recycling and separating out the various components from electronics is a much more complex process than a simple shredder could accomplish. 

For the sake of gameplay, we can craft a multitude of items with complex inlaid electronics from a single simple resource. Gathering the materials to make the internal conductors and computer chips a 3d printer would require would be too annoying (or even possible?).

So if we assume our shredded items have a lot more than just resin in them, it makes sense that the scrap would be valuable.

I like the idea of having a recycling station that would process scrap into randomized materials. More ways to use items is always a nice idea. Maybe it could be its own module, rather than the chem lab?

I personally like to think that all the scrap we are sending into orbit is going to a massive orbiting recycling plant, and prices are based on the average distributions of raw materials in scrap they receive.

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On 9/29/2018 at 12:39 AM, AbeStrange said:

So if we assume our shredded items have a lot more than just resin in them, it makes sense that the scrap would be valuable.

of course. but would it be more valuable to someone 'out there' than, say, refined ore blocks or pure fuel canisters? and if so, then why wouldn't it be equally as valuable to ourselves? if we have the technology to combine raw materials, then the technology to separate them again can't be that much more complex, can it?

On 9/29/2018 at 12:39 AM, AbeStrange said:

I personally like to think that all the scrap we are sending into orbit is going to a massive orbiting recycling plant, and prices are based on the average distributions of raw materials in scrap they receive.

really? i like to think that all the scrap we are sending into orbit is going to feed a massive lovecraftian pan-dimensional beast-god that is quietly spawning filthy demon offspring into our world to infest our minds and corrupt our souls.

but hey, that's me i guess. ever the romantic.

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There is now a good argument to completely remove the "trader" from the game.  And just replace it with a recycler.  You could even remove the shredder as well.  Then have a machine that simply accepts scrap and outputs to several nugget types, like the switch on the trader, you choose with resource you want and depending on the rarity of it, depends how much scrap you need to input into the recycler.  Or you could have it output to every type of resource at the same time.  With common resources popping to storage more often and rares slowly building over time.

You could also just remove the soil extractor as well.  Amalgamate that with the recycler and then use either scrap or soil to extract resources.   Soil would continue to only offer common resources, scrap for rarer and common.

However, the argument that scrap can just be turned into rare materials in bulk simply doesn't exist, unless you had massive amounts of scrap.  Or are perhaps recycling specific items, which would normally require the use of specific resources.

These threads always seem to lead to the same conclusion. "Game is too hard, I want everything now, give me an instant win button".  The purpose of game challenge is to make a game harder, to add grind, but it can also be to add enjoyment to playing.  It seems quite clear that what many people see as difficulty and grind is fun and enjoyment for others.  There is no reason to balance a game to reduce grind if there's enough people who enjoy it that way it is.

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martin, i like the thinking behind putting the trader and the soil extractor into one device. something that responds to the amounts of different stuff you're putting in and puts out an equivalent resource. you could maybe have different value levels of scrap - nothing too fancy, just, say, two different kinds of scrap, call 'em 'Gomi' and 'Trove'. you might get more trove from specific rarer crash types, and they would result in the rarer materials.

when you say:

On 10/17/2018 at 11:57 AM, Martin said:

However, the argument that scrap can just be turned into rare materials in bulk simply doesn't exist

you cant be talking about me. when i spoke of a randomly spawning recycle method, i said:

On 9/29/2018 at 12:00 AM, Bron said:

I would prefer this to the trade platform method, despite the trade platform arguably being a better value mechanism

not really interested in making the game easier here. it's one of the reasons I'm against the introduction of fully automated systems for the bases. a game that basically plays itself is not my idea of fun.

to answer your last point:

On 10/17/2018 at 11:57 AM, Martin said:

These threads always seem to lead to the same conclusion. "Game is too hard, I want everything now, give me an instant win button".  The purpose of game challenge is to make a game harder, to add grind, but it can also be to add enjoyment to playing.  It seems quite clear that what many people see as difficulty and grind is fun and enjoyment for others.  There is no reason to balance a game to reduce grind if there's enough people who enjoy it that way it is.

i would not argue that some level of grind is inevitable in any game that aims to be as grand in scope as Astroneer does. and i would perhaps also agree that the grind process can indeed be an enjoyable one. but i think that game balance isn't simply about reducing or removing grind, it's about adding more purpose to those elements, maybe expanding the variety of grind activities even, in order to make them seem less restrictive and 'grind'-y. choice is always good in games, even if the choice is between two or more paths that might take as long as each other - you get to choose the view on the journey, at least.

i believe that much of this discussion may be moot eventually - that the full game will include story elements and diverse 'nuggets' of background colour that will offset any grind for those who choose to engage with it on that level. but for those who just enjoy grind, i'm sure that style of play will still be there for you to choose.

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My replies often reference other posts in similar threads, don't take what I say to heart as I am not very often trying to place blame on anyone, just pulling out past complaint/arguments to try to get my point across, which you seem to have understood clearly anyway.

Edited by Martin

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Regarding grind, I honestly think that what many people refer to as "grind" is what they force upon themselves.  I remember back in the day playing Everquest, people would "grind" kill order missions, ie kill 20 rabbits, kill 20 lizards etc bring 20 tails for xx rewards.

They caused the game to become grindy, by themselves, it wasn't the fault of the game.  You often got alot of money from just playing the game, ie exploring and doing the quests once.. and not trying to find short cuts to being a millionaire.  It takes work, alot of hard work and hard work is essentially, grind.  That's life.. you want the big house, the fancy car, the big boat.. you have to grind for it.  Or just live your life (play the game) and you'll probably get all of those things in due time anyway.

It's exactly the same in all games.. grind is eye of the beholder stuff.. most people are themselves solely to blame for any perceived grind.

 

(the edit timer on these forums needs to be reviewed.. or removed)

Edited by Martin

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On 10/17/2018 at 6:57 AM, Martin said:

There is now a good argument to completely remove the "trader" from the game.  And just replace it with a recycler.  You could even remove the shredder as well. 

Yeah, unless the discord community wants it removed, it ain't a gonna be happenin since they are the ones that spawned the shredders to begin with
 

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