TehSmoo

Progression and multiple research "currencies" might be nice

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Ok, the crafting stuff is nice.  Some of the chemistry lab stuff seems overly complex for the sake of being complex, but on the whole it's good.

 

Progression, however, still feels like it needs work.

What I do not like, is having all that stuff possible, yet seeing this big range of things that I can't make on Terran.  Then, pop off to Barren... and oops, no Iron, so most of the rest is STILL out of reach.  Make a bigger shuttle!  Oops, need atmospheric thing to fuel it, and THAT needs another planet too.  I basically have to go to Exotic or Tundra to make the top tier stuff.

 

Proposed solution:

Multiple tiers of research.

  • Terran
  • Barren/Radiated
  • Tundra/Arid
  • Exotic
  • "Endgame"

Each would have its own list of things to unlock, and REQUIRE research eggs from specific planets or pairs of planets.  Separate tabs, so you get to unlock stuff, but need to jump planet to get to other planets and get new research types- this also pads out the gameplay as well, instead of just rushing off.

This would also allow a bit more resources on each planet, but still limit what you can build on each planet.  Like- terran would max at Buggy-type rovers, and light industry.  But- maybe bake a limited trade station into the initial drop building?  Terran research unlocks basic tech, and gets you off planet.

Then, you haul off to Barren or Radiated.  This gets you the next buggy, and fills out tech more.

Tundra/Arid sees most of the tech unlocked, and large rovers.  Basically all the existing stuff in the game would be unlocked by this point.

Exotic would be advanced survival stuff, and toys- automation, active base defense added in on top, and more esoteric stuff, like teleporters.

Endgame would be all of the above, on increasingly crazy planets with random hazards.  The objective could be hit a planet, set up a base against whatever hazards spawn, and retried various items, or an amount of Astronium.  Repeatable.

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The progression of visiting different planets for unique materials is something that future updates will expand upon, and supplants the necessity for additional collectibles. Duplicative systems aren't really Astroneer's style, since it over-complicates things. 

There might be some endgame locked behind the weird technology teased in the 1.0 trailer, but other than that I don't think we'll ever see research as planet specific. It's too limiting of choice, would confuse players, and is redundant. 

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On 9/11/2018 at 8:57 PM, TehSmoo said:

I basically have to go to Exotic or Tundra to make the top tier stuff.

Yeah, that's what makes it fun.

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23 hours ago, Wedge said:

The progression of visiting different planets for unique materials is something that future updates will expand upon, and supplants the necessity for additional collectibles. Duplicative systems aren't really Astroneer's style, since it over-complicates things. 

There might be some endgame locked behind the weird technology teased in the 1.0 trailer, but other than that I don't think we'll ever see research as planet specific. It's too limiting of choice, would confuse players, and is redundant. 

The current system isn't great.

You're sitting on Terran, with a large number of research objects cooking.  You have a massive list of things you can spend those points on, and NO INDICATION that you aren't going to find Tungsten or Iron, for example.  No chem station, or gas collector, or any notion of where you have to go to get them.

A new player will show up, want to make those cool things, then get let down because they have to LEAVE AN ENTIRE BASE BEHIND and start over, just to make that one item.  And again.  And again.  This is not stated, or cooked into the system.  You can research all these things, but the resources are dangled out of reach.

What this system would do, is have the planets with certain resources yield the research for those resources.  So, you have a list of things, and research points on a planet or pair of planets.  When you finish that stuff, there needs to be something that nudges you GENTLY to haul off to the next planet.  Where you can land, rebuild, and work on NEW research, and the resources to actually make that stuff should be available.  This should be a choice by the player, not just having a massive and confusing list of things the player can't have yet.

Repeat that 3 times, and you have all the stuff.  Then, procedurally generated "hard" planets for upgrades and unique items, to provide some sort of endgame loop.  Something a little more advanced than just wiping save and restarting.

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4 minutes ago, TehSmoo said:

The current system isn't great.

You're sitting on Terran, with a large number of research objects cooking.  You have a massive list of things you can spend those points on, and NO INDICATION that you aren't going to find Tungsten or Iron, for example.  No chem station, or gas collector, or any notion of where you have to go to get them.

A new player will show up, want to make those cool things, then get let down because they have to LEAVE AN ENTIRE BASE BEHIND and start over, just to make that one item.  And again.  And again.  This is not stated, or cooked into the system.  You can research all these things, but the resources are dangled out of reach.

What this system would do, is have the planets with certain resources yield the research for those resources.  So, you have a list of things, and research points on a planet or pair of planets.  When you finish that stuff, there needs to be something that nudges you GENTLY to haul off to the next planet.  Where you can land, rebuild, and work on NEW research, and the resources to actually make that stuff should be available.  This should be a choice by the player, not just having a massive and confusing list of things the player can't have yet.

Repeat that 3 times, and you have all the stuff.  Then, procedurally generated "hard" planets for upgrades and unique items, to provide some sort of endgame loop.  Something a little more advanced than just wiping save and restarting.

I understand the process, but what of players that want to use trading instead? They'll be forced to go to other planets. 

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1 minute ago, Wedge said:

I understand the process, but what of players that want to use trading instead? They'll be forced to go to other planets. 

You already have to, to MAKE the trading station.

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9 minutes ago, TehSmoo said:

You already have to, to MAKE the trading station.

Yes; however, Astroneers could still find Iron and Tungsten among wreckage, and are left with materials they can't use until moving off world - which is more confusing.

Edited by Wedge

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Just now, Wedge said:

Yes; however, Astroneers could still find Iron and Tungsten among wreckage, and are left with materials they can't use until moving off world - which is more confusing.

Soooo, then wreckage should not spawn things you don't have the research for.  And if you fly off and get the research, freshly generated wreckage COULD spawn those items.

You're kind of reaching in search of problems, here.  And choose something that could be solved pretty simply.

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9 minutes ago, TehSmoo said:

Soooo, then wreckage should not spawn things you don't have the research for.  And if you fly off and get the research, freshly generated wreckage COULD spawn those items.

You're kind of reaching in search of problems, here.  And choose something that could be solved pretty simply.

I think this comes down to if the developers want to spoon feed forced progression, or dump the player into a sandbox. Spawn rates for all the planets would have to be reworked, and an entirely new research system would have to be introduced. Also, the jump from one type of research currency to another is not intuitive. Research items would have blanketed outcomes relative to the planet they're found on, creating a disposition in new player that the same exact process is required. They'll suddenly discover the new currency, but now any excess they processed in anticipation is punished. I believe this system forces players down a narrow path, and over-complicates something that's fine with the current level of simplicity. 

Edited by Wedge

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I think limited research is going to get really frustrating remember hoe it was back in 0.3 or 0.4 , 0.5 i dont remember the exact version but if you got a research that research would unlock you a certein item andi it could give you one thst is already unlocked i think it would be better to add some type of blueprints to get only like 25% - 40% of the stuff which would be almost the same because you could get the same one but it would be available in almost every planet ( you could have some excluzive stuff for certain planets ) and you would have most of the stuff already prepared like you could not have an extra large storage or platform or the big shuttle or the big rover but you would have most of the stuff and you could put some blueprints for certain modules like maybe the shredder types ( maybe more kinds of modules like the shredder will be added in the future ) 

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4 hours ago, Wedge said:

I think this comes down to if the developers want to spoon feed forced progression, or dump the player into a sandbox. Spawn rates for all the planets would have to be reworked, and an entirely new research system would have to be introduced. Also, the jump from one type of research currency to another is not intuitive. Research items would have blanketed outcomes relative to the planet they're found on, creating a disposition in new player that the same exact process is required. They'll suddenly discover the new currency, but now any excess they processed in anticipation is punished. I believe this system forces players down a narrow path, and over-complicates something that's fine with the current level of simplicity. 

You're still reaching.

You just argued that a system THAT DOES NOT EXIST YET is not intuitive.  And that progress is lost instead of contributing to new types.  Both of which are ENTIRELY problem-seeking on your part.

These aren't even hard problems to solve.  A few different tabs on the research tool popout.  Having research past the maximum convert to new research once you have all of the lower-tier is very possible.  It could be as simple as providing a rate bonus to new research for excess old research.  And just put a cap in so people don't waste time researching on "old" planets, or spam research on old planets too much.

Sure, those are valid problems, but you're just fixating on them and declaring an entire idea to be unworkable, instead of thinking how to improve it.

 

So the research tab could very easily list which planets yield the correct research eggs, in text or pictures.  Or the system map could pop it up as well.  And once you have everything unlocked, a few last research eggs complete, and the system highlights the next planets to go to for the next type.  And the eggs that were cooking when you maxed out double the gain for the next planet, maybe maxing at roughly... what, 5% or 10% of the maximum of the next planet?  5000? 10,000?  Whatever works.

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I suggest a combination.

Let me explain. In this system, you would have the research chests giving different types of  bytes ( the names of I can’t give). In this way, planets have chests that give more of that planet’s specific bytes and less of the other planets’. The system would have to be tweaked and blueprint prices would be changed; in the end ,you have the choice, which is what matters. 

Some blueprints would need more or less of a planets bytes, making it kind of planet specific but at the same time not.

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11 minutes ago, The Tox said:

I suggest a combination.

Let me explain. In this system, you would have the research chests giving different types of  bytes ( the names of I can’t give). In this way, planets have chests that give more of that planet’s specific bytes and less of the other planets’. The system would have to be tweaked and blueprint prices would be changed; in the end ,you have the choice, which is what matters. 

Some blueprints would need more or less of a planets bytes, making it kind of planet specific but at the same time not.

Maybe 4 kinds of bytes would be nice ( you make more types of bytes if more planets are added in the game ) so lets call them a b c d so in terrain you find a research with 500 a 300 b 175 c 0 d but a space type research could be 2000 a 2700 b 500 c 125 d and all kinds of combinations like that , if you utilize the catalog with having multiple byte requirements for each bluprint would be cool and like a natural way of forcing the planetary traveling 

Edited by Kevin cela

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4 minutes ago, Kevin cela said:

Maybe 4 kinds of bytes would be nice ( you make more types of bytes if more planets are added in the game ) so lets call them a b c d so in terrain you find a research with 500 a 300 b 175 c 0 d but a space type research could be 2000 a 2700 b 500 c 125 d and all kinds of combinations like that , if you utilize the catalog with having multiple byte requirements for each bluprint would be cool and like a natural way of forcing the planetary traveling 

 I like this but every planet’s chest would give all the planet’s bytes but at a smaller amount, allowing for a choice for faster progression with one planet or having to planet hop to get all of them.

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2 hours ago, TehSmoo said:

You're still reaching.

You just argued that a system THAT DOES NOT EXIST YET is not intuitive.  And that progress is lost instead of contributing to new types.  Both of which are ENTIRELY problem-seeking on your part.

These aren't even hard problems to solve.  A few different tabs on the research tool popout.  Having research past the maximum convert to new research once you have all of the lower-tier is very possible.  It could be as simple as providing a rate bonus to new research for excess old research.  And just put a cap in so people don't waste time researching on "old" planets, or spam research on old planets too much.

Sure, those are valid problems, but you're just fixating on them and declaring an entire idea to be unworkable, instead of thinking how to improve it.

 

So the research tab could very easily list which planets yield the correct research eggs, in text or pictures.  Or the system map could pop it up as well.  And once you have everything unlocked, a few last research eggs complete, and the system highlights the next planets to go to for the next type.  And the eggs that were cooking when you maxed out double the gain for the next planet, maybe maxing at roughly... what, 5% or 10% of the maximum of the next planet?  5000? 10,000?  Whatever works.

I agree. I did find a major flaw with the suggestion. 

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1 hour ago, The Tox said:

 I like this but every planet’s chest would give all the planet’s bytes but at a smaller amount, allowing for a choice for faster progression with one planet or having to planet hop to get all of them.

Way better !

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3 hours ago, Kevin cela said:

Maybe 4 kinds of bytes would be nice ( you make more types of bytes if more planets are added in the game ) so lets call them a b c d so in terrain you find a research with 500 a 300 b 175 c 0 d but a space type research could be 2000 a 2700 b 500 c 125 d and all kinds of combinations like that , if you utilize the catalog with having multiple byte requirements for each bluprint would be cool and like a natural way of forcing the planetary traveling 

Oh, yes, good idea!  That's a super example of finding a weak point and thinking how to make it better.  (Unlike other people, who are being mostly unhelpful.)

Maybe name them something like:

  • Basic
  • Intermediate
  • Advanced
  • Exotic
  • Boost (endgame, repeatable)

That splits them up onto various planets.  Basic gets you going.  Intermediate gives you more options, bigger options, and different ways of doing things.  Advanced is MOST of the toys.  Exotic would be automation and possibly non-human tech.  Boost would give multipliers to various things, paying chunks of research points to improve performance by a % point.

Factorio did this nicely, you spend massive amounts of resources on "research vials" and shovel them, and lots of power, into labs.  Unlocking the stuff tiers up in a straightforward fashion, branching out and using more stuff, as you tool up and PRODUCE more stuff.  But the top-end vials are hard to make, and enable repeatable research that simply boosts damage, miner yield, other things.

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On 9/14/2018 at 5:36 AM, TehSmoo said:

Oh, yes, good idea!  That's a super example of finding a weak point and thinking how to make it better.  (Unlike other people, who are being mostly unhelpful.)

Maybe name them something like:

  • Basic
  • Intermediate
  • Advanced
  • Exotic
  • Boost (endgame, repeatable)

That splits them up onto various planets.  Basic gets you going.  Intermediate gives you more options, bigger options, and different ways of doing things.  Advanced is MOST of the toys.  Exotic would be automation and possibly non-human tech.  Boost would give multipliers to various things, paying chunks of research points to improve performance by a % point.

Factorio did this nicely, you spend massive amounts of resources on "research vials" and shovel them, and lots of power, into labs.  Unlocking the stuff tiers up in a straightforward fashion, branching out and using more stuff, as you tool up and PRODUCE more stuff.  But the top-end vials are hard to make, and enable repeatable research that simply boosts damage, miner yield, other things.

Yeah this would be a great addition to the game and it would become a game changer because it would allow you to freely do as you wish but yet again if you want to advance , standing in one planet would take much more time to progress than traveling to others and collecting all kinds of stuff . 

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