Shadow Echo

[Merged] Discussion about comprehensive patch notes/Discord/etc

Wyvyrias

Certain replies from the "The Crafting Update" patch note thread have been merged in here to let people continue the discussion without having to "censor" anything. Since this discussion was too much for patch note comments, I think this is the best solution. Excuse if replies that included questions about the patch notes, not related to this discussion, were merged in here as well. I can't micro manage every reply to split and edit it.

Your feedback is appreciated.

PS: I've created this thread, but due to chronological rules, the oldest reply will appear as #1. The "first" user in this thread is not it's creator.

Message added by Wyvyrias

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12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

I remember back when Adam and the crew were looking for a new office at the beginning, then settling in. Some people were incredibly harsh, saying how lazy they were just taking people’s money and doing a piss-poor job of the game’s development. They were only hand a handful of people! Those who are critical for the sake of it, without knowing anything about the game and the people behind it, theyre trouble no matter where they choose to raise a stink. I’m not that sort of person. I remember when Paul died (and right after that they had another core member leave, something that had been decided long before the team was blindsided by their tragic loss). I remember watching Adam do a creative stream awhile after that, the topic came up and several people in the chat spoke about it with Adam. We were all offering our condolences to him and to the team (only Adam was in the stream, can’t remember exactly what he was making though I can picture it in my mind for the most part, looked sort of like an old film projector or maybe an old reel-to-reel tape recorder in a box; don’t think we ever saw it show up in the game but I’m sure that’s true for a lot of designs), in general offering just our support to him and the team as well, but it was a very emotional moment. I’ll never forget that, a powerful memory.

That was the videos for making the ship that ultimately can be found on the surface of the moon wasn't it, just after paul pepera died. If I got the name right.

Adams videos on creating objects were very good, pity we don't see that kind of development anymore.

 

12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

Like many others here, I know a lot about how the game has evolved over time. Wish I knew more about the people who’ve been added on over the last year or so, that’s why I made some of the suggestions I did. Having each of them write some stuff now and then (in the forum setting) is the best way imho for people to get to know them. A lot of sites have stuff like that.

There’s no reason it needs to be a big burden. Each segment they write should be fairly short, nothing too demanding, we understand they’re busy folk. As for communication as a whole, I feel for Joe. How could anyone not? The burden of communication for an entire community simply can’t fall to one person, plus he has other responsibilities as well. That’s just not fair. Gonna give the poor guy a stroke! He does an awesome job but one person can only do so much. There are only so many hours in the day etc. I hope as these major systems are finished up for release he’ll get some much deserved rest (and helpers from his peers)? You deserve it Joe!

It would be nice to see a sort of Wiki, giving details even personal thoughts for each of the devs.  Stuff like where they're from, what the like, what their work history is etc. Like you get with hollywood actors etc.  This goes for all games, I think it would bring fans and devs closer together.  Seeing someone talking in discord helps to an extent, but it is fleeting.

It would also allow fans/players to direct specific questions to specific developers as the game progresses.  Incl compliments etc on updates and changes.  Etc obviously includes negative statements.  Which is probably why most companies don't do this.

But I can say from experience that those companies that do, do this, are some of the best companies to work for.  Cs sites like Glass list the most respected companies in the Uk/Eu as the best places to work.  It's often surprising to see who is in the top 50, top 100 etc

I've worked for some very famous and prestigious companies over my lifetime, including Samsung, Sony, Microsoft, Blizzard North (I did an office network for them in Edinburgh) and many others.  I prefer contract work to normal full time.  They are great because they go that extra distance in making people feel welcome.

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@Shadow EchoBy all means please continue to operate how you see fit.

However, it’s widely considered  disingenuous to post large bodies of text; especially thought pieces with frequent instances of digression. I cannot stress that enough. As a fellow Astroneer fan, I find your enthusiasm, and bombastic approach to writing, heartwarming. However, it’s difficult to process, and developers in general, are less inclined to read everything written. I’d go so far as to pose, they will not read such long posts, and instead defer to users such as @MrSpicyWeiner to break it down. That’s not good, as content from your post is filtered out. Please understand that every moment of time is precious to small development teams. If something important is buried in large responses, it will be lost.

I suggest providing a bulleted outline of discussion points. Organize topics in order of importance; with the more directly related and/or relative topics first in the response. Otherwise you’re constructing a word salad, that many people are going to forget what you’re adressing about half way through. This is not to say your audience don’t care, it’s that they can’t read it. Not trying to appeal to the audience is just as insulting, and disclaiming, ‘don’t read if you don’t want to’ - is admitting that the writing is not intended for anyone on the forums (your audience) to read.

I’m sorry if you considered my critique a personal insult. That is not intended. I’ve just edited too many poorly written, hundred page white papers crapped out by engineers to have patience for documentation that could have been condensed roughly ten times over. Sorry if that frustration spilled over.

Edited by Wedge

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12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

I’m interested to hear when the Devs became involved in the Discord. As I said, they weren’t in the beginning. Quite the contrary, they seemed very uninterested in the idea (probably because they’ve always been a very small studio with a lot on their collective minds and plates).

The Discord has been around months before the game even launched.
Just like the devs have been there shortly after it's creation (Adam joined within hours after I created it). They used to have quite actives phases back then as well.

12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

A note about mods and dominion? I wasn’t aware the Discord mods were considered mods here.

Not all are. I've been the only really active moderator on the SES/Steam forums and reddit while being the owner of the Discord for quite some time. Spicy just recently joined here to help out (he's been my co-admin on Discord for almost forever).

12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

Wyv, as others have said, you do an incredible job! Who else is mod on the forums here? I know someone else was promoted from forums, maybe it was about a year ago? I know there’s someone else, and it’s not someone from Discord. Anyway, while SES may choose to grant Discord mods the tag here, I think Wyv said it best-he’s the mod here, he goes through all the forum stuff (best he can, best anyone can). The Discord isn’t here.  

Thanks.
And you probably mean Lith or Payno. Both of them were also active on the Discord. Payno disappeared long ago, Lith left a while ago (all personal matters).
You can assume everyone who is a moderator here either "comes from Discord" or is using it as well. I do have influence on the choosing of mods, and we use Discord to communicate with each other and sort out matters quickly.

12 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

I’d love to come to Discord and maybe bend a Dev’s ear or two.

You're very welcome to join and have a talk with the developers. If you catch the developers when they're active and writing, all good, just be sure to never ping them unless they ask you for reference to some specific information (it's part of the rules so we don't have people flood them). And to defuse the earlier mentioned rumors about the moderators muting and banning people left and right, remember I am the owner of the very same Discord that has been accused of such practices. People who think this kind of thing happens without reason caught things without context (which can happen easily on Discord, as the flow is rather fast at times). There's usually a heavy violation of rules necessary to receive any punishment (we do warn several times in advance), unless you're already known for causing problems.

4 hours ago, Martin said:

It would be nice to see a sort of Wiki, giving details even personal thoughts for each of the devs.  Stuff like where they're from, what the like, what their work history is etc. Like you get with hollywood actors etc.  This goes for all games, I think it would bring fans and devs closer together.  Seeing someone talking in discord helps to an extent, but it is fleeting.

They have https://www.linkedin.com/ profiles, usually.

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@Wyvyrias

It was Lithium. Had to look back a ways but that was the person I was thinking of. Lithium was very active here, so yes I had wondered why I hadn’t seen them around.

Now that I search the site for “Discord” I see what you’re talking about? The whole bit about an official Astroneer Discord being initiated very early on etc. It’s not that I didn’t believe you, I was searching for the comments and postings that I’d seen, the ones where the Devs weren’t interested in Discord. Who knows? With a forum this vast, even way back in Pre-Alpha times, it’s easy for anyone to read some bits here and there and those comments not really be part of the big picture I guess is the best way to put it. Sometimes what you see and read isn’t the the most accurate representation of how stuff is set up and operating. Also, I don’t know if the official Discord back then was used more by PC players than Xbox players (I’m not making any sort of judgmental comment here, sometimes there are legitimate differences in usage, especially at certain points in time). In retrospect I think it’s likely I saw something about users creating a Discord for Astroneer, unaware their was an official one already in existence, and the Devs commented they weren’t interested in joining at that point (because they already had their own, but the comments neglected to mention that part, or at least that part wasn’t clear or wasn’t conveyed at all).

Dont worry though, if I go onto the Discord, it wouldn’t be with the expectation I could monopolize the Devs’ time, and I certainly wouldn’t be “pinging” them over and over to answer my questions. I’d have to check things out first, see how things are compartmentalized, and what the “routine” is. I’d be a newbie there, I’m not about to go in throwing weight around that’d be stupid lol. I carry no weight there. Just another n00b? I’d have to figure out how you can tell who’s around, and when they’re accessible for questions and the like. All places have their rules, and I’m not interested in causing problems (may have sounded like it, but that’s not me). I’m pretty chill.

@Wedge

You weren’t the one who offended me, no worries (I believe Spicy and Elendar were the ones who initially stirred up trouble). I will respond to a few of your points though. I do put quite a few bullet points into my discussions. I try to break things up into many paragraphs as well. I number out points I’m trying to make. I use a lot of different techniques to assist the reader. As I said, I’ve been attacked for my writing style for a very long time. Anyone would be a fool to think I didn’t care, or that I hadn’t tried to “fix” things. At the end of the day though, my “job” is to provide feedback the Devs ask for. That’s what we’re all tasked with doing.

We all have different ways of writing, of providing our feedback. I’m not long winded (as some might say) because I disrespect the Devs’ time. I’m thorough. Being very detailed is highly valued in many fields, especially where lives depend on it (granted in the ED you’re not going to be taking detailed notes while your patient is crashing). It does get quite annoying when people make value judgements about it. Even calling it “word salad” is rather judgmental. The medical field is full of dull, long-winded articles similar to what you’ve mentioned. I know I’ve had to read my fair share especially when I had to do research as a Peds Fellow (I trained in Neonatology). Very dry material indeed! You get used to the sawdust prose lol. Pretty easy to skim after you’re accustomed to it, rather formulaic. I wrote my own research paper (excluding the results, that took a bit more time to compile tables and such) in about an hour. Once you understand the lingo, the parlance of the trade, it’s easy to emulate (although my PI was rather shocked). Many have said I’m talented when it comes to writing. I’m not so sure about that, but writing does come easy, I’m thankful for that.

I’ve long considered my writing as a flow of consciousness (it works that way too, rather impossible to control that flow). After I’ve written something, I spend a great deal of time editing it, checking it. If people understood just how much time I did spend, I doubt they’d make some of the comments they did. I put an enormous amount of effort into trying to make it work, make it more accessible for readers. For each post I make, about 5 others, all equally as long and detailed, don’t get posted. I store all of them away in an app so I can save them, access them later. If I ever wanted to edit and post them, they’re all there (but I usually just start over, it’s often easier than going though all the editing that’d be involved tbh). That’s enough about me, and my writing style though. That’s not what anyone here wants to talk about right? This is about the game and communication. I don’t want it to be about me. It certainly shouldn’t be about me.

General comment:

I realize some of what I write includes items that would fall under bug reports or another section besides the Patch Notes (although most things I try to keep relevant to the most recent update or two). I don’t write in the Bug Reports section, want to know why? Ever try reading that section? I know I do, it’s a total disaster (not because of Wyv or any other mod though). Probably 2/3 of the crap in that section is garbage, stuff people would know better than to complain about if they’d only bothered to (1) read the Patch Notes, or (2) make a new save each time an update came out. Should probably add (3) stuff that’s always been an issue (or just some minor glitch) since the game launched. Things like how the planets appear sliced. Or how there are space marbles you can’t research lol. Bottom line-I have no interest in the few (but important) observations, issues, and bug reports I make getting lost in that turmoil. I realize that makes me sound extremely self-important, but I assure everyone I’m only here to serve the Devs and their game. I’m just trying to do my best at that. If I’m a bit presumptuous to that end, so be it. I know some will argue slippery slope and all that. Most people are too busy to notice what I do, I’d argue. Don’t think I’ve upset the cosmic balance of the forums or the game so far✌️

 

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On 9/7/2018 at 1:58 AM, Shadow Echo said:

One example I can give (...) is Warframe by Digital Extremes.

I play Warframe a lot. DE is very active in their forums and with their community in general. In fact, they attribute their success to their early (and ongoing) open and frank engagement with their community. There's a youtube documentary about the game in which the devs mention how crucial to their success this has been and still is. It's such a contrast to here, in which a dev will only get involved in a conversation in the forums if it gets too "out of hand" or too controversial, like this thread. I've seen this before, it's not the first time. I guess SES has not yet realized how powerful the forums are as a tool for communication and community engagement...

As for this whole thread, I'm loving it! Someone finally got Joe to do his job and make an appearance here in the forums. Bravo!

Discord is nice, but it's a f...g mess. The general channel is just a fast-paced chat room filled with mind-numbing conversations, and you get banned/muted for pinging devs as if they're some sort of celebrities or something. I'm too old to go back to mIRC. An adult will most likely check and search the forums for information, not a teen-infested chat room.

I haven't read the patch notes, but judging by the reactions here, I can tell something got "accidentally omitted" once again. Hmmm...

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1 hour ago, vvhorus said:

and you get banned/muted for pinging devs as if they're some sort of celebrities or something

Imagine you had plus 8000 people wanting to ping you. heh

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6 minutes ago, Wyvyrias said:

Imagine you had plus 8000 people wanting to ping you. heh

Wew, lad.

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20 minutes ago, Wyvyrias said:

Imagine you had plus 8000 people wanting to ping you. heh

That should come with the territory. As a new game developer company, they should be more than willing to answer any questions that come their way. If that is too bothersome to them, then don't be in the Discord server at all. That seems to work for the forums...

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7 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

That should come with the territory. As a new game developer company, they should be more than willing to answer any questions that come their way. If that is too bothersome to them, then don't be in the Discord server at all. That seems to work for the forums...

If everyone would use the search function, 95% of all question would answer themselves.
That said, while you do have a point, the team isn't big enough to answer questions 24/7 (and the community usually can answer them anyway). Plus if anyone should be pinged at all, it only would be Joe and QA people. The other developers are not supposed to be involved with support. If you would have everyone answer questions all day, half the progress on the game can be moved to next year. 

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Surely if one does not wish to answer, one does not.  Regardless of being "pinged".  If it's an option and people use it legitimately, then they certainly shouldn't be banned or muted.  That's just nonsense.

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I have to agree (with @vvhorus and @Martin).

Devs (no matter where they’re interacting) will get tagged, pinged, or otherwise directly mentioned and labeled by a ton of people (hoping for a response) for myriad reasons, and the onus is on them to filter our the large amount of background noise. Comes with the territory.

The majority of players who have questions or issues regarding the game don’t need input from the Devs. They may ping the Devs,but that doesn’t mean they need attention from the Devs, and it certainly doesn’t mean the Devs should feel obliged to answer. No matter where you go, it’s obvious a lot of players are pretty clueless about the game and how to play it. It seems most don’t bother to read the Patch Notes either because they don’t want to bother or maybe they don’t know where to find them. Could be any number of reasons. People still ask on forums here and in Xbox clubs why space marrbles can’t be researched lol. Theres a Wiki too, but not many check it out, and sometimes it’s not been the most up-to-date resource. Occasionally people can, and do, run into weird one-off situations and assistance is needed, but not always from a Dev. Weird stuff can happen.

Thing is, the Devs haven’t exactly done themselves any favors. I don’t want to beat on this excessively but when your Patch Notes consistently fail to include important and noticeable changes, people feel lost, confused, and they’ll ask more questions as a result. Last update before this one they listed new recipes but they didn’t this time, makes no sense. No matter how much is added to the UI in game, via the catalog or whatever, it’s nice to include that info somewhere in the Patch Notes. So they should've listed not just the gases, compounded items, etc, ideally they would’ve listed recipes as well (what makes these composite materials, where you get the stuff required to make them specifically which planets now have which resources, how much of each is needed to craft items in the catalog, and so on). etc). I realize when it comes to the Atmospheric gases they want some mystery and experimentation to remain, that’s fine.

Maybe I’m just clueless (I’ve hardly played, haven’t used the Chemistry Lab because I saw last week there was a new patch update coming out, didn’t want to start a bunch of saves until it did, and my Xbox One X didn’t update until a few hours ago so not entirely my fault) so I admit I’m still n00b when it comes to all the new stuff. On average I maintain between 20-25 saves across different accounts, so I always have plenty of gameworlds to mess around in! Anyway, if the Devs didn’t don’t want to spoil things, wanted players to “discover” all that stuff on their own (I don’t agree with that, it should be up to the individual whether to read the info) then ok I get it. Instead of listing all that in the Notes (which I’ll admit would’ve made the Notes very lengthy) they could always just reference it all in an addendum to the Notes, somewhere else in the forum perhaps in create a designated space for such things and include an official game glossary as well, something I’ve mentioned elsewhere before. That way, players who’d like to peruse the material could do so, study it, and we’d know it was accurate and official.

Remember, I’m not talking about them being 100% comprehensive. Having an official glossary of terms on the forum since the beginning would've be been immensely helpful imho too, even if some nomenclature changed over time. That way, when players chose to discuss things in the game, or gameplay mechanics, they would’ve known they were using the correct terms rather than making stuff up etc. Can’t count how many times I’ve tried to help players in the Xbox One club I’m in, yet things became awkward due to lack of established nomenclature. We’ve been hamstrung, forced to rely on unwieldy made up lingo such as “that cupcake/cheeseburger research pod” or “that egg roll-tubeworm crossover plant” to describe things or help out, it gets frustrating. If Joe sees to it the Devs cover the majority of things that change from update to update, it would be a significant improvement. For example, mentioning in 0.10.1 how the starting platforms were changed from previous A to B, and how filters and medium storage are now crafted from resin when compound was used previously? That sort of stuff. Not everyone will want to know such things, but when Devs assume no one cares, no one will notice, no one wants to know, it comes across to many people like myself (who pay attention to all the “little touches” in a game, all the loving detail Devs add) as an attitude like “we don’t care to tell you” or “we’re either too busy to bother, or consider it not important.” Doesn’t matter really which is it, because neither leaves the player feeling the game or their experience is important.

I know I can’t really make out the crafting ingredient requirements in the catalog as others have mentioned, the text is poorly legible on my 65” TV (the choice of font color against background is bad, something SES struggles with again and again). Its frustrating, but a lot of Devs and studios are guilty of making terrible design choices when it comes to UI. I’ll link below a great video below that highlights several important things Devs can do and check to improve the look of their games so all players can enjoy them, even if they have issues with color deficiency or visual acuity. This isn’t about making games for very small segments of the population. All Devs can learn a thing or two about making their games more accessible to players. The earlier in development one starts, the easier and cheaper it is to accommodate.

This is a great series that’s ongoing. There’s another video about accessibility for those with auditory challenges, and others are planned to address issues in gaming for those with cognitive and physical impairments. This has nothing to do with “dumbing down” games, in fact many of the things discussed in the video benefit many players, including those who don’t have visual acuity or color deficiency problems. I have presbyopia on top of lifelong myopia. I play in our master bedroom’s reclining in bed, but that’s not really any different than many who play console on their couches sitting across the living room from their tv (or in a den etc). It’s not unusual to play sitting 12-15 ft back from a widescreen TV these days (unless you live in a small apartment, dorm etc). Back when the Wii came out, you had to sit very far back out or you’d either hurt yourself (whacking your hand or arm into stuff like furniture or your partner) or knock stuff over lol!

Here’s the link to the video: https://youtu.be/xrqdU4cZaLw 

Im not sure if it’s ok to embed the video itself so for now I just put the link.

The part about fonts, visual acuity and such start at 7:36 in the video. The part before that is just as important to Astroneer because it covers color deficiencies (and I don’t think Astroneer has dealt with that properly either). As a rough guide for console games, they recommend not dropping below 28 pixel font for important UI text elements and button press info, and 46 pixel font for subtitles. While Astroneer doesn’t contain subtitles, not at the moment anyway (although it might, depending on when we get a story with quests and what that story ends up being), there are tons of UI cards and other UI elements we’re supposed to be able to read and refer to, things that are especially important to the new player, and all of that information is incredibly tiny! I have no good frame of reference for how big these suggested pixel sizes are, but I feel confident guessing SES is not anywhere near meeting these sorts of recommendations, probably not even for button press & hold info (the button press stuff definitely needs more contrast, a lot of things do).

The video further elaborates on contrasting text, and sums up best why I hate the catalog. The whole blue-purple and pink idea? I understand they want it to look different, futuristic even, but that’s not what you should prioritize when you’re dealing with a critical piece of UI where legibility and clarity are vital to player understanding! I don’t think it meets colorblind criteria and it’s not easy on the eyes. Another thing mentioned in a related video (I can provide link if requested) discusses how many games make the mistake of choosing a don’t that Devs feel “fits” the theme of a game but fail to recognize how much they sacrifice in terms of legibility in doing so. That code goes through many examples of games where all sorts of weird fonts (cursive, ancient text, futuristic, etc) have been chosen and they look terrible. If you’re going to pick something like that you should have a conversion tool where players can pick an alternate font (and ideally font size such as a slider bar). The best recommendation is to keep it simple. Use a plain Sans Serif font that’s sized appropriately (sizes were mentioned above), one that’s “clean” and contrasted properly (such as using dropshadow or contrasted background so text doesn’t get lost in your gameplay). Doing so goes a very long way towards informing players what’s happening onscreen so they have the info they need to play your game the way you intended while having fun in the process. 

Anyone who’d like to watch the one about hearing and gaming Dev, here’s that link: https://youtu.be/4NGe4dzlukc

If you don’t trust the links, just go to YouTube and look up Mark Brown “Designing for Disability” series. It’s great!

Don't ever underestimate what a gamer is capable of doing with the right accessiiloty options (and thoughtfulness on behalf of Devs). I had no idea there were a number of blind players who not only were into fighting games, but actually were able to do well at it because the genre has included options allowing players to hear things they would otherwise need to see (interactable objects in the enforcement, charging up moves, powers, whatever I’m not a fighting game person excuse my ignorance lol). Games are for everyone. Often just a few key adjustments can make all the difference in the world.

i hope the Devs will watch them, mostly importantly (for the moment) the one about color and visual clarity stuff.  @Wyvyrias if I could ask you a favor perhaps sometime you could drop a note to the Devs about these vids. I’m not sure who would be the best person to mention it to, they’re all very busy right now, so I’ll let you decide. Just would like them to know about it. Even if I make an appearance on the Discord I’d rather not ping them for something like this because I know it’s not going to be high priority right now. Still, if you could pass it along, I’d be grateful. I’m sure others would be too because the tiny text issue alone is a significant. Not sure how many have problems with the catalog itself especially the whole pink and blue scheme, it’s bettter than it was I will give them that, but I’m not convinced it’s the best way to go. It may not be something that can be changed before release, but they’re going to continue working on the game for awhile so that’s ok.

There are many things that could use work. All the module interfaces are blue often with pink thrown in, and I’m not sure why black and white wouldn’t work just as well if not better? Idk, I’m not the one sitting there at a screen working on it in real time but anyone who watches the video will see this isn’t the sort of UI element that’s recommended if I’m understand correctly. Trying to make something that looks rather gimmicky in order to “fit” your game aesthetic often results in an inferior product when it comes to visual clarity. The ingredient list (catalog) needs to be against a dark background (like black or very dark grey) for example. Why not make all of the background like that to begin with? With the UI card pop ups, the part that’s easiest to read is the white text on the dark grey semi-opaque background. I don’t like having all the clutter those generate in the visual field (very annoying) but at least that part they did a great job with. Still a bit small perhaps but using good contrast helps a lot!

Sorry for typos, my iPad ignores a lot of them now. I know it’s not bulleted but at least I chop it into paragraphs. Thanks everyone.

 

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I think everyone's pretty clear on the notes and Discord stuff now...

I included a similar note on the text on Xbox in Joe's new topic but didn't go into the detail. They're just not properly testing on the right kit, as you mentioned. Things apparently look pretty sweet a couple of feet away from 25" 4K monitors and $8K PCs! 

Edited by Blind Io

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@Blind Io Thanks, I’m so glad to hear that! I know someone posted some screenshots showing stark contrast between lighting on PC and Xbox using TV, miles apart. Hopefully going forward this can be remedied and the game will look great for console players (it’s not like it looks bad, it’s just too dark at night and underground, too bright during the daytime, and trying to adjust constantly for that using the game brightness settings doesn’t help overall because it’s a balancing issue). As I’ve mentioned (more times than I care to count) the entire UI system with the color choices, fonts, and such, all need some scrutiny. So I’m very pleased to hear about this as well. I know it may take a bit of time, but it’ll be so worth! One major chunk off my list of worries!

edit: tried to nab some typos

Edited by Shadow Echo

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Yeah, Discord is objectively a better place to get consistent updates. That will not change any time soon. Although it's nice to have updates, SES isn't under contractual obligation to provide us with trivial notices. The majority of users just want content, and the less time wasted on compiling unnecessarily detailed information, the better. It is not to hard (given the simplicity of Astroneer mechanics) to figure out minor shifts just by playing. Demanding an alternative is lazy, and selfish - not to mention idiotic. Omitting information about game mechanics is a method for developers to test features. There is no argument to be made here. I see no point in continuing this unnecessary, egocentric thread. 

Edited by Wedge

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15 hours ago, Martin said:

Surely if one does not wish to answer, one does not.  Regardless of being "pinged".  If it's an option and people use it legitimately, then they certainly shouldn't be banned or muted.  That's just nonsense.

People are being warned if they ping them (again, unless that particular dev asked for some info and you're bringing it in later). If people continue to ping them after being warned, it's just a legitimate violation of a rule. Saying "that's nonsense" isn't going to make it any less of a rule violation. There are reasons why the developers even made their DM's friends only. If you have a question, suggestion or a bug report, use the forums for that. Discord is not the place for those things. We established clear usage cases for the forums and Discord. And we surely don't want the developers to sit in "Do Not Disturb"-mode all day to avoid hearing pings (and I can tell you from experience that those can become annoying real quick). If you think there's truly something that requires the devs attention asap, ping a moderator or an admin first.

7 hours ago, Shadow Echo said:

i hope the Devs will watch them, mostly importantly (for the moment) the one about color and visual clarity stuff.  @Wyvyrias if I could ask you a favor perhaps sometime you could drop a note to the Devs about these vids. I’m not sure who would be the best person to mention it to, they’re all very busy right now, so I’ll let you decide. Just would like them to know about it. Even if I make an appearance on the Discord I’d rather not ping them for something like this because I know it’s not going to be high priority right now. Still, if you could pass it along, I’d be grateful. I’m sure others would be too because the tiny text issue alone is a significant. Not sure how many have problems with the catalog itself especially the whole pink and blue scheme, it’s bettter than it was I will give them that, but I’m not convinced it’s the best way to go. It may not be something that can be changed before release, but they’re going to continue working on the game for awhile so that’s ok.

IIRC I did suggest such things in the past. I can see it happening after the game has been finalized, otherwise it would be too much of an extra burden to think about all the colors as colors and models are still being changed. I'll bring the topic up again when the time comes, thanks.

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1 hour ago, Wyvyrias said:

People are being warned if they ping them (again, unless that particular dev asked for some info and you're bringing it in later). If people continue to ping them after being warned, it's just a legitimate violation of a rule. Saying "that's nonsense" isn't going to make it any less of a rule violation. There are reasons why the developers even made their DM's friends only. If you have a question, suggestion or a bug report, use the forums for that. Discord is not the place for those things. We established clear usage cases for the forums and Discord. And we surely don't want the developers to sit in "Do Not Disturb"-mode all day to avoid hearing pings (and I can tell you from experience that those can become annoying real quick). If you think there's truly something that requires the devs attention asap, ping a moderator or an admin first.

IIRC I did suggest such things in the past. I can see it happening after the game has been finalized, otherwise it would be too much of an extra burden to think about all the colors as colors and models are still being changed. I'll bring the topic up again when the time comes, thanks.

I disagree.  First you're saying don't use the forums, use the discord, now you're saying you can only use discord for certain things, otherwise use the forums, then you're saying you can use discord, but only if you use certain specific rooms.  Then there's "you broke a rule" so what.. rules.. not laws. People are excited, they've paid money irl money.. they deserve answers.

If a dev doesn't like being pinged, he ignores the ping.. if it's incessent, he turns off his sound.. solved.  You actually believe you have the right to punish people who have paid for this game.  That's the farce of discord.  And it's why moderators get bad reps.  You're not the police, you're there to help people, not mute them.

And why I won't use it.  For Astroneer, I use it for dozens of other games.  Which in itself, speaks volumns.

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7 minutes ago, Martin said:

I disagree.  First you're saying don't use the forums, use the discord, now you're saying you can only use discord for certain things, otherwise use the forums, then you're saying you can use discord, but only if you use certain specific rooms.  Then there's "you broke a rule" so what.. rules.. not laws. People are excited, they've paid money irl money.. they deserve answers.

If a dev doesn't like being pinged, he ignores the ping.. if it's incessent, he turns off his sound.. solved.  You actually believe you have the right to punish people who have paid for this game.  That's the farce of discord.  And it's why moderators get bad reps.  You're not the police, you're there to help people, not mute them.

And why I won't use it.  For Astroneer, I use it for dozens of other games.  Which in itself, speaks volumns.

If you would have read everything I've written so far, you would understand what I am saying.
And rules are the same as laws if it's about moderation. If you break the law of the server, you'll see consequences, that's how it's always been, everywhere, even here. Whether you own the game or not isn't even relevant for that.
Of course we could just have the developers block everyone who misuses the pings. That way no one gets punished, but they won't get a second chance to actually communicate either. Pick your poison, I'd say.

And "helping" isn't exclusive to an individual. If people disrupt the order, everyone is being helped if they're being moderated for it. If anyone wants help, there are proper channels for that, and others look there for the purpose of helping them. Or do you see people receiving help from emailing the CEO of a company instead of submitting a support ticket?
I get your point, but I can't agree with it, as it's not realistic, but rather wishful thinking. I've seen small communities where this kind of thing works (pinging devs and getting direct help), but it becomes way too troublesome in larger communities.

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Again I think you're missing my point.  The fact that people do own the game, means they effectively own the forums etc. Except for the discord, which you setup. Yes, there are basic "polite" rules which people are generally expected to follow, but ruling with the iron fist, never works.  All it does is move the more active players to less formal surroundings.  Afterall, most people don't like rules. 

As for the rest of it, you're basically saying the devs and moderators are more important than the people paying them.  Obviously, that isn't true.  You're the one with wishful thinking in mind.

Edited by Martin

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1 hour ago, Martin said:

The fact that people do own the game, means they effectively own the forums etc.

Ok, see how far you get with that in court.

I think @Wyvyrias has show great restraint in dealing with the baseless assertions that developers are not allowed to set rules and limitations for their forums. The effective assumption of such argument is forums are an anarchy, and anything goes regarding content - which is blatantly false. There are rules set by the developers for both the forums and Discord. Breaking the rules will result in appropriate reprimand - cause and effect.

1 hour ago, Martin said:

As for the rest of it, you're basically saying the devs and moderators are more important than the people paying them.

This is a flaming straw man of an argument. @Wyvyrias never posed that davs/mods were somehow preferential to members/customers. Devs simply cannot handle the torrent of pings; all containing messages funneled through improper channels. If I want change enacted in my state, I don't try to text message the president. If I want to suggest something, I don't cram it down a random team member's throat. Instead, I prepare a suggestion, and post it on the proper forum. If I want to make a comment, and contribute to ongoing discussion over Discord, I do so.

Users with bloated sense of self importance might place a premium on spamming developers directly with incessant babble, but ground rules state it will be ignored upfront. Mentions are left open for cases of congratulating achievement, personal gratitude, and responding in active conversation. Honestly, you're advocating abusing mentions. This is not isolated to just the SES Discord server. The vast majority of Discord servers operate with rules against mentioning staff without a good reason - a reason that isn't just for self-advancement of suggestions, ideas, desires, etc. A good reason is something that has immediate benefit to the entire community. 

 

Edited by Wedge

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@Wedge actually said it quite accurately.

The community does not own the forums, the forums are a place that the developers offer to gather feedback. If you were to spam, be constantly rude, harassing people or or anything else that's not productive, you would see proper consequences. It does not matter how much you paid for the game, that's an entirely different issue. The forums, just like Discord, Reddit and all other places, have rules and everyone will be judged according to those rules (and common sense). People already got themselves permanently banned in various places for highly toxic behavior. Does owning the game entitle them to continue having access to our places regardless? Certainly not. And it's this way everywhere where rules actually exist.

And no, I certainly didn't say devs and moderators are more important than the people paying them (little side note, we moderators are not being paid). It's a self-explaining concept to not put the burden of thousands of people wanting to message you onto a few developers. I doubt you could get any work done when you would have to go through all kinds of random messages each day, most of them being suggestions or reports that have been posted a hundred times over already, or even just people saying "hi". If the developers were some kind of super AI, things may look different, but they're not a super AI. And remember, while you gave +20 bucks to the developers to get a game, they rely on this money for their living. It's certainly not in their interest to make their customers unhappy when they rely on this money to make a living. But they simply can't do superhuman tasks either.

So again, if there's a suggestion, idea, bug or anything else, by any means, the forums are here and you can make a post about it. Then the developers can actually read through it, note it, and mark it as "read".

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I’m surprised it had to be spelled out so clearly: this thread wasn’t an open invitation to request change in media policy. If in fact the developers have read this far, bravo. ?

If anyone is still miffed by set policy, and such concerns are very important to them, I suggest forming a petition, and/or sending a formal complaint via email to System Era Softworks (contact@systemera.net). Understand that this is not a sure fire way to enact change.

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Instead of banning/muting, moderators should encourage people to come to the forums to join conversations, ask questions, make suggestions, and report bugs. Maybe that will decrease dev pinging. Maybe have a bot post the link once every 15 minutes or something, reminding people to use the forums for all the things mentioned before...

Edited by vvhorus

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1 hour ago, vvhorus said:

Instead of banning/muting, moderators should encourage people to come to the forums to join conversations, ask questions, make suggestions, and report bugs. Maybe that will decrease dev pinging. Maybe have a bot post the link once every 15 minutes or something, reminding people to use the forums for all the things mentioned before...

That's a great suggestion!

If any SES Discord moderators are framilier (and have permission from the devs), they could simply self-bot informative messages to help newcomers, and advertise appropriate outlets for certain topics. Sadly, there are quite a few people that don't read through rules and guidelines, and although I have no issue for whipping-the-daft, it'll just be easier in the long run for the mods... hot coffee warnings. Some people are just dumb, or ignore the warning, and sip anyway, but those with burned tongues have nothing to say if all was revealed upfront.

Edited by Wedge
Minor formatting

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58 minutes ago, Wedge said:

Sadly, there are quite a few people that don't read through rules and guidelines

This is the main problem, as well as people who then think rules don't or shouldn't apply to them. 

The Discord, including the great little bot (Pajamas) Spicy made, is set up to separate the two communities as has been decided - Discord for chat, forum for bugs and suggestions. Mods and helpers refer the latter here with a bot command. 

Rarely, the users make the effort to come here. 

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2 hours ago, vvhorus said:

Instead of banning/muting, moderators should encourage people to come to the forums to join conversations, ask questions, make suggestions, and report bugs. Maybe that will decrease dev pinging. Maybe have a bot post the link once every 15 minutes or something, reminding people to use the forums for all the things mentioned before...

We constantly remind people to use the forums. If a suggestion or bug report is being made, we refer to the forums right away. Our bot even has commands for that.
We're not going to make it post the link by itself on a timer, though.

1 hour ago, Wedge said:

That's a great suggestion!

If any SES Discord moderators are framilier (and have permission from the devs), they could simply self-bot informative messages to help newcomers, and advertise appropriate outlets for certain topics. Sadly, there are quite a few people that don't read through rules and guidelines, and although I have no issue for whipping-the-daft, it'll just be easier in the long run for the mods... hot coffee warnings. Some people are just dumb, or ignore the warning, and sip anyway, but those with burned tongues have nothing to say if all was revealed upfront.

Our Discord bot actually DM's new users on join with some starting information.
I am still trying to get Joe to integrate an automated message for new users on the forums, too. While the moderation itself is mostly left to me, I can't do any changes to the forum itself. Which is why our Discord is more customized, because I do can change anything there (and the bot things are being handled through Spicy, of course).

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