eri5

[0.10.1]Use empty canisters for the Atmospheric Condenser

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Why does the Atmospheric Condenser create gas-canisters out of nothing?

Reminds me of the old days of hydrazine-condensers.

Why cant we just use regular empty canisters and then they get "ballooned" into the round shape by the  Atmospheric Condenser (and shrink back if empty? 

 

 

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22 hours ago, eri5 said:

Why does the Atmospheric Condenser create gas-canisters out of nothing?

Reminds me of the old days of hydrazine-condensers.

Why cant we just use regular empty canisters and then they get "ballooned" into the round shape by the  Atmospheric Condenser (and shrink back if empty? 

 

 

That gets me to thinking... there is such a thing as rigid inflatables, and I'm not talking rubber boats. I'm referencing that NASA developed inflatable heat shields . Basically, balloon tech that is strong enough to withstand the forces of re-entry:

heat-shield.jpg.213edffe098437807151546065343fe4.jpg

This same tech could be applied to those gas canisters. The appearing from nothing is likely to reduce the manufacturing requirements given that people need a lot of gas to produce the new materials. Instead of them taking up an entire inventory space, have empty gas canisters stow-able like Extenders. Using one Compound crafts a pack of four to six. When filled, the gas bags take up an inventory slot; upon being emptied, they shrink, and can be packed together again.

Edited by Wedge

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+1. Have them like tethers so they are bundled until used. Actually just have all canisters be inflatable until used...if a balloon can survive re-entry it can hold dirt.

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This sounds pretty awesome!

The only criticism would be the difference between canisters in a stack on your backpack and getting filled with dirt. As a canister is filled, would a new one get put on the nozzle and begin to fill, pulled from the stack?

The idea is neat for sure!

I really hate that they currently make canisters out of thin air. Boo.

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9 hours ago, syterth said:

This sounds pretty awesome!

The only criticism would be the difference between canisters in a stack on your backpack and getting filled with dirt. As a canister is filled, would a new one get put on the nozzle and begin to fill, pulled from the stack?

The idea is neat for sure!

I really hate that they currently make canisters out of thin air. Boo.

Machines that require filling of canisters should have a canister pallet slot. Plop in the stored balloon-canisters, and as it cycles, it automatically unpacks a new one and slots out the other. Canisters on same platform storage would likewise replace the designated canister pallet slot once it's depleted. Starting the machine without a pallet in place, draws one from the player's inventory if available. Also, the player would have the option to manually place one beforehand like current canisters from inventory. :)

Edited by Wedge

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Maybe a new canister called gas canister can be added and needs one compound instead of oneresin or maybe one clay or smelted clay i forgot whats it called

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On 9/7/2018 at 10:53 AM, eri5 said:

Why does the Atmospheric Condenser create gas-canisters out of nothing?

Reminds me of the old days of hydrazine-condensers.

Why cant we just use regular empty canisters and then they get "ballooned" into the round shape by the  Atmospheric Condenser (and shrink back if empty? 

 

 

To me, at least on xbox, it makes using gas more direct and easy then having another thing to put on the condenser and to fill and dispose, back when we had the fuel condenser it kinda sucked and I don't want that again, right now to me canisters should stick to soil, hydrazine and gas are ok with creating their own containment, all we need is a pretty animation when it creates and destroys itself and it'll be fine, putting more red tape around to me will just complex things, especially for xbox users

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In my opinion it would be nice to have some different canister just for gas and as some have commented above we could have them in packs of 6 or 4 which would take only one inventory space but this canisters would have different crafting requirements and would be crafted in packs 

Edited by Kevin cela

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What's wrong with what we have now?

Gas canisters get automatically created when needed, and disappear when depleted. They're even refillable. They serve their purpose, which is gathering a resource for crafting. Over-complicating the process will achieve nothing. It will still be a canister but with a higher cost to make.

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I like the fact that the machine makes its own containers. Also, since the gas containers hold multiple units of the associated gas you would probably have to have 2, or possibly more, types of containers that you would have to make. I vote to leave things as they are now.

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4 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

What's wrong with what we have now?

Gas canisters get automatically created when needed, and disappear when depleted. They're even refillable. They serve their purpose, which is gathering a resource for crafting. Over-complicating the process will achieve nothing. It will still be a canister but with a higher cost to make.

But then why do we need to prefabricate canisters for soil? Shouldn't those just be generated by the Terrain Tool?

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9 minutes ago, Wedge said:

But then why do we need to prefabricate canisters for soil? Shouldn't those just be generated by the Terrain Tool?

Totally agree, but that's a question for the devs, though. They're the ones who decided that hydrazine and gas canisters will magically appear when needed and disappear when depleted...

Maybe those canisters have some sort of technology akin to Tide pods?

Edited by vvhorus

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57 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Totally agree, but that's a question for the devs, though. They're the ones who decided that hydrazine and gas canisters will magically appear when needed and disappear when depleted...

Maybe those canisters have some sort of technology akin to Tide pods?

It's likely temporary. No resource cost items don't follow the direction of the game. Kinda how power nuggets were removed for being a magic power supply, along with oxygen nuggets.

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2 hours ago, vvhorus said:

What's wrong with what we have now?

Gas canisters get automatically created when needed, and disappear when depleted. They're even refillable. They serve their purpose, which is gathering a resource for crafting. Over-complicating the process will achieve nothing. It will still be a canister but with a higher cost to make.

So if we leave it at that then the game will just stay as it is but the more changes and the more crafting the more challenging the game gets , why do you play the game ? for building purposes only or for exploring grinding and crafting , if you dislike the making of only a small little canister that much than just ask for a no cost cheat or a creative mode because making a game more realistic and challenging will extend the gameplay and extend the time you have to put into the game so you wont get bored of it

Edited by Kevin cela

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12 minutes ago, Kevin cela said:

So if we leave it at that then the game will just stay as it is but the more changes and the more crafting the more challenging the game gets

Building a canister does not add any challenge to the game, no matter the cost. Give me story missions, give me puzzles, give me things to figure out and challenge me. But a canister? Come on, you can't be serious...

Edited by vvhorus

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39 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Building a canister does not add any challenge to the game, no matter the cost. Give me story missions, give me puzzles, give me things to figure out and challenge me. But a canister? Come on, you can't be serious...

I assume then that tethers should generate every time the T hotkey is used?

Astroneers shouldn't get items for free (without collecting materials). Some basic adherence to the conservation of matter would be nice, or in this case 1 material ≠ 2 products. Understandably, some things that are printed require more than one material, but they're combined. With canisters, each one would not be composed of the gas it contains. Everything else doesn't pop out of nowhere, why do gas canisters suddenly get an exception (a point that has yet to be refuted)?

The options are either collapsible/pack-able canisters, or resin/compound slots on Atmospheric Condensers, so they can generate canisters. As for the comment about building canisters does not add any challenge to the game, it seems your main arguments always boil down to that, or some similarly fallacious statement. If building items presents no challenge, why have anything in the game at all? Why collect resources? Why even collect soil? In fact, having to construct canisters is additional challenge in the form of material cost; having to construct anything is a challenge.

 

 

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I didn't get that far.  Haha, I thought they DID use canisters.

But isn't the gas bag just made out of the same stuff as the socket?  That free socket that appears on a stack of resource every time you start picking things up?

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34 minutes ago, Wedge said:

I assume then that tethers should generate every time the T hotkey is used?

I don't know what are you trying to get at with all these irrelevant comparisons...

35 minutes ago, Wedge said:

Astroneers shouldn't get items for free (without collecting materials). Some basic adherence to the conservation of matter would be nice, or in this case 1 material ≠ 2 products. Understandably, some things that are printed require more than one material, but they're combined. With canisters, each one would not be composed of the gas it contains. Everything else doesn't pop out of nowhere, why do gas canisters suddenly get an exception (a point that has yet to be refuted)?

Whether we should or shouldn't get items for free in the game is not up to you, thankfully. SES will have to remove all wrecks, abandoned bases, dead astroneer backpacks, etc...

Gas canisters serve only one purpose: hold gas. Same as hydrazine canisters. The reasons why SES did not make us build them are unknown to all of us. Ask them. Maybe they didn't want to clutter the catalog with 10 different canisters for 10 different purposes, who knows. If by some coincidence this happened to be the reason, I applaud it. Sometimes less is more.

50 minutes ago, Wedge said:

As for the comment about building canisters does not add any challenge to the game, it seems your main arguments always boil down to that, or some similarly fallacious statement.

If you read the post I was replying to, the player was implying that having a more "challenging" canister will make the game more challenging. Really? How so? Are you both going to tell me with a straight face that a canister worth two crafting components instead of one will make the game more challenging opposed to the one we have now, irrelevant of what material it is made out of? It's just going to be a canister: a little vessel to hold something in it, period. Like I suggested: give me missions, puzzles, real challenges, something worth my time doing. A more expensive super-duper inflatable canister that can bounce a lot and can withstand atmospheric reentry does nothing for that.

My comment still stands: there's nothing wrong with the current system "(a point that has yet to be refuted)"...

1 hour ago, Wedge said:

If building items presents no challenge, why have anything in the game at all? Why collect resources? Why even collect soil? In fact, having to construct canisters is additional challenge in the form of material cost; having to construct anything is a challenge.

What do you propose the cost of this ultra-challenging canister be? One resin and one compound? One resin and one aluminum? One resin and one tungsten? One titanium alloy and one nanocarbon alloy?

What will be the benefit of such a canister? Re-usability? A hold-all canister has been asked multiple times in these forums, yet here we are...

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30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

I don't know what are you trying to get at with all these irrelevant comparisons...

These comparisons are not irrelevant. You cannot simply dismiss an argument like that. 

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

SES will have to remove all wrecks, abandoned bases, dead astroneer backpacks, etc...

Sorry, I should have been more specific - I assumed what I meant was grossly implied. Astroneers shouldn't get crafting products for free.

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Gas canisters serve only one purpose: hold gas.

Thank you for rectifying that. I assumed this information wasn't already established?

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Maybe they didn't want to clutter the catalog with 10 different canisters for 10 different purposes, who knows.

I don't know what are you trying to get at with all this irrelevant hypothetical reasoning...

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Are you both going to tell me with a straight face that a canister worth two crafting components instead of one will make the game more challenging opposed to the one we have now, irrelevant of what material it is made out of?

No, I wont and never did suggest that. I posed that gas canisters should be made of single resource bundles, as soil canisters are now. For convenience, I suggested they could be packaged like bundles of tethers.

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

there's nothing wrong with the current system

I suppose development has reach a homeostasis, and is suddenly ready for full release? As for what is wrong: the system is inconsistent. Canisters should have a unified implementation to prevent players from being confused by their use. What that is, as you already clarified, is up to SES. My suggestion was predicated on canisters that existed before. Perhaps a change will be made to make all canisters resource-less, but I've argued that such a change removes challenge in the form of needing additional resources.

30 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

What do you propose the cost of this ultra-challenging canister be?

Now you're just misrepresenting the argument. My example applied to the context of individual, and progressively more complex products and the materials that comprise them.

Edited by Wedge

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@vvhorusI think I should clarify something...

Please don’t frame gameplay elements that are quality based, like perceived challenge, as something that can be objectively determined. Making a semantic argument here that challenge is based on difficulty of obtaining/fulfilling a function of gameplay doesn’t suit any of the purposes that suggestions on this thread address.

Obviously, Astroneer is a game about collecting resources (along with exploration, research, etc). There is already little perceived challenge collecting resources. I will agree with that. However, it is not the same as distinct challenge; because to gain models/assets for progressing, players need resources. There's no way around it - players get resources to make stuff - an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Making ubiquitous items require resources, such as canisters, enhances demand. The move towards requiring players travel to other planets is aligned with such principle, and is an element of development SES has confirmed. Perhaps some consider these aspects more of a tedium, but anything in the game can be considered a tedium, so such argument is void.

Edited by Wedge

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51 minutes ago, Wedge said:

Astroneers shouldn't get crafting products for free.

We currently don't have any, as far as I know. As you well know, the gas/hydrazine canisters themselves are not part of any crafting recipe nor can they be repurposed. Once it's used, it's consumed. For all we know, there's a whole stack of empty canisters inside the atmospheric condenser waiting to be used, and another whole stack of used empty ones inside the chem lab, and somehow they get transferred between each other and recycled. It's all part of the underlying fantasy in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate your real-life scientific approach to suggestions, but we sometimes forget that this is a game that's based on part fantasy and part retro science, even though the supposed time frame is 400 years into the future. I don't get why canisters even exist so far into the future and not some other advanced more efficient or futuristic vessel type, like one made from energy itself. But then again, it's all a fantasy...

51 minutes ago, Wedge said:

I don't know what are you trying to get at with all this irrelevant hypothetical reasoning...

That was exactly that, hypothetical reasoning. Take it for what it's worth...

51 minutes ago, Wedge said:

I suppose development has reach a homeostasis, and is suddenly ready for full release?

Far from it...

51 minutes ago, Wedge said:

As for what is wrong: the system is inconsistent. Canisters should have a unified implementation to prevent players from being confused by their use.

Like I said before, and I'm not sure if you were aware prior to me mentioning it, but hold-all canisters have been suggested many times before. Right now there are three very distinctive ones, and only one of those is actually craftable and reusable. Nothing confusing about that, in my opinion...

Edited by vvhorus

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12 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

We currently don't have any, as far as I know. As you well know, the gas/hydrazine canisters themselves are not part of any crafting recipe nor can they be repurposed. Once it's used, it's consumed. For all we know, there's a whole stack of empty canisters inside the atmospheric condenser waiting to be used, and another whole stack of used empty ones inside the chem lab, and somehow they get transferred between each other and recycled. It's all part of the underlying fantasy in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate your real-life scientific approach to suggestions, but we sometimes forget that this is a game that's based on part fantasy and part retro science, even though the supposed time frame is 400 years into the future. I don't get why canisters even exist so far into the future and not some other advanced more efficient or futuristic vessel type, like one made from energy itself. But then again, it's all a fantasy...

That was exactly that, hypothetical reasoning. Take it for what it's worth...

Far from it...

Like I said before, and I'm not sure if you were aware prior to me mentioning it, but hold-all canisters have been suggested many times before. Right now there are three very distinctive ones, and only one of those is actually craftable and reusable. Nothing confusing about that, in my opinion...

If canisters become free of charge, I'll have no complaints. Of course, it requires elimination of existing mechanics, and resource re-balancing. Containers are a basics technology, and in the grand scheme of things could very well have been developed along the lines you suggested. Self-generating/self-disposing canisters do have inventory benefits, but at the same time eliminate much of the micromanagement with handling empty containers... not to mention destroying something that previously acted as placeholders in storage.

Late game resource requirement for containers is negligible, but with players just starting out, decisions on to-make-or-not-to-make are an important part of intractability and choice.

Edited by Wedge

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10 minutes ago, Wedge said:

@vvhorusI think I should clarify something...

Please don’t frame gameplay elements that are quality based, like perceived challenge, as something that can be objectively determined. Making a semantic argument here that challenge is based on difficulty of obtaining/fulfilling a function of gameplay doesn’t suit any of the purposes that suggestions on this thread address.

Obviously, Astroneer is a game about collecting resources (along with exploration, research, etc). There is already little perceived challenge collecting resources. I will agree with that. However, it is not the same as distinct challenge; because to gain models/assets for progressing, players need resources. There's no way around it - players get resources to make stuff - an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Making ubiquitous items require resources, such as canisters, enhances demand. The move towards making players need travel to other planets is aligned with that principle, and an element of development SES has confirmed. Perhaps some consider these aspects more of a tedium, but anything in the game can be considered a tedium, so such argument is void.

Maybe we're both seeing this through different lenses. I'll give you a personal example.

Before patch 0.10, my personal "meta" was to build a mineral extractor, boost mod and wide mod as soon as possible. That gave me access to unlimited resources because soil is everywhere. But for that to work, I had to build a lot of canisters, 8 to be exact. That was what it took for the mineral extractor to fill up, and with the boost/wide mod combo, I could fill up all 8 canisters in around 30 seconds. That meant I had fast unlimited resources at my disposal as long as I kept a sample of each. I also needed lots of canisters to hold hydrazine (the catalyzer alone required 4) to efficiently fill up the shuttles' fuel tanks.

Come patch 0.10 and I discover that (thankfully) that meta was not viable any more. I could not extract any metals from the soil, and that changed my playstyle, including how many canisters I needed. I now craft one since that's all I really need. I get a few here and there from backpacks or wrecks, but those usually end up in a medium storage or right where they were found.

The canister has been relegated to hold soil exclusively, and I personally believe it's a good thing. Anything else is just needlessly overcomplicating things that will add no real value to the process...

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45 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Maybe we're both seeing this through different lenses. I'll give you a personal example.

Before patch 0.10, my personal "meta" was to build a mineral extractor, boost mod and wide mod as soon as possible. That gave me access to unlimited resources because soil is everywhere. But for that to work, I had to build a lot of canisters, 8 to be exact. That was what it took for the mineral extractor to fill up, and with the boost/wide mod combo, I could fill up all 8 canisters in around 30 seconds. That meant I had fast unlimited resources at my disposal as long as I kept a sample of each. I also needed lots of canisters to hold hydrazine (the catalyzer alone required 4) to efficiently fill up the shuttles' fuel tanks.

Come patch 0.10 and I discover that (thankfully) that meta was not viable any more. I could not extract any metals from the soil, and that changed my playstyle, including how many canisters I needed. I now craft one since that's all I really need. I get a few here and there from backpacks or wrecks, but those usually end up in a medium storage or right where they were found.

The canister has been relegated to hold soil exclusively, and I personally believe it's a good thing. Anything else is just needlessly overcomplicating things that will add no real value to the process...

Well so if the devs say lets remove canisters from the game and let the soil become a mineral and gas comes magicly to your backpack and some part of it solidifies in an external canister wich keeps the other part contained inside it and when the gas inside its used  up completely the <i>solidified part will magicly disappear and go back into the atmosphere </i> , oh wow such a cool way of getting soil and gas i like this idea so much i love it / its a sarcasm if you dont get it . So if this is what you want then as the comment above said why put a small printer for items with one material lets just have some gas solidifie at our backpacks and create teathers , small wind turbines , oxygen tanks , small panels and all one-material cost items yeah i like that magic gas coming when we need it its still like it was before right no <b>less challenging than it was but instead it got more challenging...wow.. i think... this is ... also MAGIC  </b>  this coment was made for the only purpose of explaining to you how things work in a realistic way and how they work in a magical way which astroneer has chosen the first one but you want to combine them both and create the one and improved way of doing it the chaotic unfair way , i like the sound of that , and please do not put your anger inside the comments i  am not going to get scared or sad if that was your intention purposly or not 

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Im sorry about the html codes i thought this page worked with those so i forgot about the options on the top

Edited by Kevin cela

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