Marck

Exploits don't harm Astroneer

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Good game designers have a strong framework of basic "rules" in which the game is played, and in most cases, a sense of progression as the game is played.

Obviously, unintentional "features" will creep in that break the rules framework and will be discovered and used by some, but not all, players.  Just because the devs. missed an obvious interaction that "shortcuts" gameplay does not mean that they intended for it to be there, nor will they want it to stay.

As others have said, your ROI on any game is playable time; if your playable time is shortened (finally being "done" with the game) due to unanticipated bugs that shortcut the game's intended progression, that's a big problem.  You also have to keep in mind that it's human nature to want to "take the easy way out", even if it negatively impacts the overall experience in the final analysis. 

Unfortunately, most people don't have the self-control, or intuition, to realize that a bug/exploit/crutch they are using will have significant impacts on the overall experience.  I was lucky enough to quickly realize that machines that magically make rare resources from dirt was an incredibly bad idea, and although one that is still supported by the devs., it is still hugely problematic from an experience point of view.

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Absolutely agree with Martin and others arguing against being able to abuse the "piloting from habitat" exploit.

How does this impact other people? Simple: joe blow uses exploits and cheats to access all the content in the game in a fraction of the time a real player does, then proceeds to go onto the game's store page and leave a negative review about how the game is horrifically unbalanced and offers terrible value because he zipped through the tech tree and explored every planet in 45 minutes. This translates little by little into less money for the developers -> less content for players who interact with the game as intended, and a reputation for being a rickety mess full of easily abused design holes on top of it all. So no, it's not as simple as "I'm not hurting anyone by exploiting." You very much are, just not immediately and directly as you might in a pvp/multiplayer environment where you negatively impact another player's experience.

Never mind that it is going absolutely contratry to the intended design and ruleset of the game. There's being creative with game mechanics, like rocket jumping in early 3D shooters, and then there's explicitly violating the rules to score shortcuts. From the perspective of a game designer, the former is a neat and interesting way to interact with your game design, and the latter is literally game-breaking and demands cleaning up. You're playing the game the designer wants you to play. If you want to play your own game, go make it yourself, or select one with a much more loosely defined ruleset.

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3 hours ago, Bomoo said:

If you want to play your own game, go make it yourself, or select one with a much more loosely defined ruleset.

If you want to play your own game, go make it yourself, or select one with a much stricter ruleset.

I am not advocating against having a strictly defined default ruleset which reflects the developer's idea of what Astroneer should be. Instead, I am advocating for Astroneer to allow more than just one single ruleset.

I want Astroneer to be a game that is flexible enough to allow you to change its default ruleset to some extent. The more freedom you get for adjusting the rules, the better. To illustrate how this could be done, you may want to have a look at Sid Meier's Civilization (versions V or VI): The stock game already allows you to play the game by following one or more of several different strategies; and then it also allows to be completely changed by modding. That's one example for a possible approach that Astroneer could benefit from, too. There are also other possibilites. We should not rule them out without even considering them.

All of you calling for one single ruleset are oh so confident that the ruleset that you have on your mind will be the same ruleset that the developers are going for. What if your idea does not match their's? Will you abandon the game? Will you keep playing Astroneer although it does not implement your idea of how it should be? You do not need to consider these questions, if Astroneer's default ruleset can be adjusted to your liking. Everybody wins. I thought this was obvious, but I find myself talking against this narrow-mindedness time and time again.

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11 hours ago, Marck said:

 I thought this was obvious, but I find myself talking against this narrow-mindedness time and time again.

 

heh.  Indeed.

Different rulesets are a good way of creating options for longevity, but there is a difference between having a defined ruleset and cheating in a defined ruleset.   You were not advocating for different game setups, you were trying to excuse your exploitation of broken mechanics and saying that doing so is or should be acceptable.  Exploitation is never acceptable, except where it's actually part of the gameplay.   Flying a spaceship, clearly designed to carry 1 large storage + 1 enclose seat is a defined ruleset.  Flying a spaceship with 2 large storages and a habitat as your controlling seat, is not a defined ruleset.  It is exploiting.

We're not the ones being narrow minded here.  Look in the mirror for that source!

Edited by Martin

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On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 5:43 AM, Martin said:

It sounds like you're grasping for excuses to validate cheating.  There should be "options" in games to circumvent circumstances.  But these options should all be legitimate and legal.  ie Using Stealth, Using Range, using a shield, building a wall.. something that's built into the game and designed to be used by the player. 

Being able to use something that wasn't intended to be used in the way you want to use it, is what you want.  But you also want your peers to not view you in a negative way when you do it.  You don't want to feel that dirty, itching feeling that runs down your spine, when you do something you know, noone else will do, because it's wrong.

You want your alibi. 

It's okay, it's fine, it's how it should be, it's my game, I can do what I want. 

But that isn't the truth.  It's not being honest.  It is exploiting. (in my opinion)

For most of us, it is obvious that an enclosed seat is designed for space craft an open seat is for vehicles and a enclosed seat that produces oxygen and can be deployed into the ground as a permenant fixture is a habitat.  Or initial base to be added to.

That you could use it for other applications, is true, you could.  The question is, will you?

I won't.

This "is" about what is right or wrong.

Dude..... I am so glad I don't live in your Gameverse.... and accusing people outside your Space of cheating is insane.  I play with a lot of people in multi player and we just set up rules for that particular play threw.  Your statement about whats Right and Wrong as if your opinion supersedes all others just leaves me without words strong enough to be said in civil discussion.

Enjoy the game and give it a rest buddy. 

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Knowing the difference between right n wrong doesn't make an opinion, just a fact of life.   If someone chooses to cheat, but wishes to think they aren't, that's thier problem, not mine.  Forums are for opinions, I'm not telling people what they must or must not do, only stating my opinion on where I think the lines are drawn between fair and unfair.  Black n White, with no grey between.   It isn't about wether I think my opinion supercedes anyone elses opinion, but about understanding basic rules.  If people cannot come to a conclusion as to what is fair play and what isn't.. then they'll never be able to agree on anything, or really even disagree.. as they'll have no basis for a discussion.  Might as well be discussing the theory of gaming philosophy.

If you want a I do it this way and you do it that way.. that's fair enough.   If people don't want to play fair.. that's fine.  But if you think for one tiny moment, that you'll ever get me to agree that doing something that is clearly an exploit, isn't.  Forget trying.   In fact, if you can't even admit for fair rules are, there's no point you even discussing exploits is there? Since you'll never agree if something is or isn't because it just isn't in your area of comprehension.  You're refusing to accept that someone elses opinion might be right on the outset.   I've heard the arguments for exploitation, I understand them, I understand and agree, that in your own space, it's totally acceptable.  But otherwise, it just doesn't work like that.  Only children argue in absolutes.   I'm offering my opinion only.  Not commanding, that you see it like that, is your choice.. not mine. So don't try to put that over on me.

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2 hours ago, Martin said:

Knowing the difference between right n wrong doesn't make an opinion, just a fact of life.

Sorry, Martin. It's not. 'Right and Wrong' are specifically determined by the way in which one is raised. In some cultures, abuse of those who believe differently from yourself is not only considered normal, but FAILING to do is is actually 'wrong'.

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If someone chooses to cheat, but wishes to think they aren't, that's thier problem, not mine.

The same goes the other way: If you consider something cheating, and that anyone who does it is most definitely a cheater, that's YOUR problem. Not theirs.

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Forums are for opinions, I'm not telling people what they must or must not do, only stating my opinion on where I think the lines are drawn between fair and unfair.  Black n White, with no grey between.   It isn't about wether I think my opinion supercedes anyone elses opinion, but about understanding basic rules.

Forums ARE for opinions. And you ARE stating your opinion. I'm not sure WHY you feel the need to insist that everyone MUST acknowledge the 'correctness' of your opinion, but that does seem to be the case. ANY time you eliminate a grey area in interpretation or how folks enjoy a game, you are specifically arguing in absolutes (Black n White ONLY), you are going too far.

Just for reference: Once you equate your opinion to 'understanding basic rules', you ARE saying your opinion supercedes anyone else's opinion. Your Black n White doesn't allow for anything other THAN your opinion... Oh, and also: Astroneer DOES NOT HAVE ANY RULES. Rules are lists of how things are to be played or performed, specifically to exclude behavior NOT in said rules. There is NO list of rules in Astroneer. I have yet to see a description of what each vehicle is EXCLUSIVELY supposed to be used for and how it is to be configured. If you have access to such a list IN THE GAME, by all means, please share it with the rest of us. If you don't, please don't act like how YOU prefer the game be played around you has anything to do with any actual rules, it's just what you want.

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In fact, if you can't even admit for fair rules are, there's no point you even discussing exploits is there? Since you'll never agree if something is or isn't because it just isn't in your area of comprehension.  You're refusing to accept that someone elses opinion might be right on the outset.

So here you've decided that insulting someone's intelligence because they don't conform to YOUR opinion of 'fair play', since they are obviously too stupid to be able to 'comprehend' something that someone as brilliant as you sees with the clarity of black and white simplicty, is the best way to go? Way to recognize that YOU are the only perfect game player in the world. Thank goodness you have graced us with the glory of Your presence, and have deigned to bestow upon us lesser beings the bounty of the overflowing font of Your Magnificent Wisdom.

Here's a little tidbit for ya: accepting that someone else's OPINION is RIGHT under ANY circumstances is damnfoolery. By it's very nature, an opinion is ALWAYS right. FOR IT'S HOLDER. NO opinion is 'right' in the way of 'factually correct', as things that are factually correct are FACTS not opinions. OPINIONS are ONLY 'right' to the one who holds that opinion. Not anyone else.

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But if you think for one tiny moment, that you'll ever get me to agree that doing something that is clearly an exploit, isn't.  Forget trying.

Only children argue in absolutes.   I'm offering my opinion only.  Not commanding, that you see it like that, is your choice.. not mine.

I have to agree with that first part, but with greater expansion: Getting you to agree that anyone can play a game any way but YOUR way and NOT be a filthy scumbag cheater is not going to happen, and everyone should forget even trying...

And finally: Despite all your claims to the contrary, ALL your 'arguments' have been in absolutes THE WHOLE TIME. Insisting on 'Black and White with no gray between' is the very DEFINITION of absolutes! Everything is either right or wrong? Absolutes. I'm not going to quote your earlier comment, but that 'dirty, itchy feeling' you mention? Seriously, that's just YOU that feels that. The rest of us try things in the game that we don't know if they will work, and most often LAUGH out loud if it does something we didn't expect it to do. And if we like doing it that way (the Habitat trick has been killed, btw), we KEEP doing it that way until the Devs change it. We don't feel bad while playing A GAME! That's just...crazy! If you feel bad if you do something in a video game, you should not be playing video games...hmm, maybe I should emphasize that... PLAYing a GAME! PLAY it, it's FOR FUN! If PLAY makes you feel dirty, YOU are the one doing it wrong!

In the launch screen of the game, it clearly specifies that there WILL be glitches and issues in the game, as it is still in development. Players that 'break the rules' and 'break the game' are EXACTLY the kind of people most Devs WANT to play their Early Access games, not narrow-minded rule mongers like yourself! When people 'break the game' they show the Devs where there are issues that either need to be addressed and corrected, or acknowledged as part of the game.

Just in case you didn't understand, I'll TRY to clarify: YOU ARE NOT PLAYING A GAME. YOU ARE PLAYING AN ALPHA RELEASE OF A PROGRAM IN DEVELOPMENT. YOU MAY CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THAT PROGRAM IN WHATEVER WAY YOU WISH TO DO SO, AND DEMAND THE SAME FROM ALL WHO INTERACT DIRECTLY WITH YOU, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE. BUT ACTING LIKE YOUR CHOICE IS RIGHT AND SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE IS WRONG IS SHOWING IGNORANCE OF WHY YOU EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO THE GAME (besides helping fund it's ongoing development), AND THAT IS TO HELP THE DEVS MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR ONGOING DEVELOPMENT PROCESS, AND PROVIDE THEM INPUT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT INFLUENCE THE FINAL FORM OF THE GAME. IN IT'S CURRENT FORM, THERE. ARE. NO. RULES. STRESS IT, BREAK IT, GO CRAZY. Or don't. But don't act like someone else actually DOING WHAT THE DEVS WANT THEM TO DO IS WRONG!

Even the Devs only refer to people using 'exploits' or glitches in Astroneer. I have never heard them say there is a list of rules that must not be broken. Rules are for finished games, not for development prototypes.

 

Ahem. To anyone other than Martin: If I have in any way offended you...get over it. To Martin: Don't get over it. I don't want you to.

Have fun in Astroneer, folks. That's what the Devs want us to do.

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So you've removed me from your ignore list I take it.

Didn't read all of your post.. was falling asleep.

The same goes the other way: If you consider something cheating, and that anyone who does it is most definitely a cheater, that's YOUR problem. Not theirs.

Not my problem as stated previously, what someone does in their own game, is their decision.   If they did it in my game, then, it'd be my problem.  Which, I am fairly certain, is the core reason we're having this dicussion.  Of course, this doesn't bother you, as dragging stuff out of context and rewriting someones opinion is something I'm used to seeing you do.

24 minutes ago, The Gray Mouser said:

you are going too far

I see..

25 minutes ago, The Gray Mouser said:

Just for reference: Once you equate your opinion to 'understanding basic rules', you ARE saying your opinion supercedes anyone else's opinion. Your Black n White doesn't allow for anything other THAN your opinion...

Er no.. nice try tho.  But if you want to talk in bs.. feel free to continue.  In order for anyone to discuss anything, they need to accept that "all" sides, have the right to thier opinions.  Asking people to accept a basic understanding, is not demanding or superceding their opinion at all, you're talking rubbish and obviously, that's also my opinion.  Feel free to disagree, but provide arguments.

28 minutes ago, The Gray Mouser said:

The rest of us try things in the game that we don't know if they will work, and most often LAUGH out loud if it does something we didn't expect it to do.

That's all good, but you aren't here demanding that everyone should now accept that using such clear exploits, should be now considered normal gameplay.  I put forward the opinion, that it is exploitation of expected results. ie not playing by the rules and obviously, only of import, in a mp game, where at least 1 person doesn't like people exploiting mechanics.  If everyone agrees it's okay.. then that's their decision, I really am not arguing for people to be forced to obey the law of astroneer.  I'm just saying.. giving my opinion, that if you do so in MY game.. then I would ban you from my friends list.

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59 minutes ago, The Gray Mouser said:

Just in case you didn't understand, I'll TRY to clarify: YOU ARE NOT PLAYING A GAME. YOU ARE PLAYING AN ALPHA RELEASE OF A PROGRAM IN DEVELOPMENT. YOU MAY CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH THAT PROGRAM IN WHATEVER WAY YOU WISH TO DO SO, AND DEMAND THE SAME FROM ALL WHO INTERACT DIRECTLY WITH YOU, THAT'S YOUR CHOICE. BUT ACTING LIKE YOUR CHOICE IS RIGHT AND SOMEONE ELSE'S CHOICE IS WRONG IS SHOWING IGNORANCE OF WHY YOU EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO THE GAME (besides helping fund it's ongoing development), AND THAT IS TO HELP THE DEVS MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR ONGOING DEVELOPMENT PROCESS, AND PROVIDE THEM INPUT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT INFLUENCE THE FINAL FORM OF THE GAME. IN IT'S CURRENT FORM, THERE. ARE. NO. RULES. STRESS IT, BREAK IT, GO CRAZY. Or don't. But don't act like someone else actually DOING WHAT THE DEVS WANT THEM TO DO IS WRONG!

Reminds me of those bits at the bottom of disclaimers noone ever reads because it's considering impolite to shout in a forum.

Just to remind you, mr mouse, I am replying to someones original post, stating "exploits don't harm astroneer" this is not a suggestion of them harming a game in developement, but of the game at release.  The argument made, is that "a player can decide how they wish to play and should be supported however they wish to play" in general.  My counter opinion, is that a player can only move within the guidelines the developer has decided and that doing stuff, purposefully, knowingly, exploitive, is I would say, unfair gaming policy. Now there is no doubt, that some people don't care.. usually they're called trolls and various other names.  But I accept, that even trolls are allowed an opinion, which is why I'm considering yours.

If Marck was posting a bug report showing various exploits, I'd fully support him.  But he isn't.  He posted suggesting, that the player should be able to exploit obvious game mechanics however they should wish, whenever they wish it and that doing so should not be considered harmful to astroneer as a game. 

I and others have stated our opinions, that this is not the case.  Referred to by trolls like you and keplerorc as superceeding, demanding, stating as fact etc etc.

Basically you're calling me a troll for disagreeing with your opinion.  By accusing me of doing, what you are in fact doing.

The only difference is, I am not bullied so easily as your usual victims.

Now if you don't mind, just put me back on your ignore list or continue calling me a troll in your avg posts as I really don't care what "your" opinion actually is. Really I don.t.

Edited by Martin

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I seem to recall that creepers in mindcraft were the result of some bad coding.  Just goes to show how a glitch, error, or "exploit" can go on to become a welcomed addition to a program. 

 

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Here's a perfect example for an exploit that doesn't harm Astroneer:

As said in my reply in that thread, the exploit can only possibly harm your game when you don't like its effects but deliberately make an effort to experience them anyway. Or, when playing with others, someone chose to disregard a mutual agreement to not use such exploits. But this means that this player ceased to cooperate in a co-operative multiplayer game.

And yet there are reactions from players claiming that this "breaks the game" and that it needs to be "fixed" by which they mean this exploit must be removed. Other ways of dealing with it are not even considered.

That's what I think must change when discussing exploits: Don't be destructive in your criticism ("this exploit must be removed!"), but rather constructive and creative ("how can we sensibly integrate this unexpected and/or unintended feature into the game?").

And also think of the children (who also want to play Astroneer, but maybe in an easier and more forgiving variant)! :)

Edited by Marck

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On 29/03/2018 at 1:14 PM, The Touch of Grey Gamer said:

@The Gray Mouser

I love you man! :$

Truer words have never been posted
Thank you for bringing truth, sanity & facts to this discussion 

And there's the other one.

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+1

 

A True Engineer or Astronaut would use EVERY resource available to them.  EVERY SINGLE ONE!

 

P.S. Grey Mouser, um, you really did say much except agree to him in most cases.  Just in different words.  So what?

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You are all taking this game WAAAAY too seriously!!

My recommendation: take deep breaths, and look at how you guys play individually. If you find an exploit and it bothers you to your core, just don't do it. If you find an exploit and it gives you the LOLs, by all means, keep doing it! We all play games to enjoy ourselves, to leave stress behind. Who cares what we all do with our individual worlds?

For those who are a bit stuck up by rules and argue that exploits affect multiplayer, here's a recommendation based on personal experience: play either solo or with friends that you trust. Don't join games or allow players you don't trust to join yours. That way, you can play the way you want, always.

I play this game mostly (around 90%, I would say) in multiplayer with personal close friends. Anything goes with us! We only have one rule: if you make a hole, cover it up after you're done. The laughs and silliness are unreal. Too bad we missed the habitat "exploit" (I quoted the word because I don't think it was one; everything in a video game needs to be programmed, and I think that was deliberately done so), as it would have been hysterical.

This is just a video game, and on Alpha early release to boot. Enjoy it for what it's worth!

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If you're in your own single player game, there is no argument.  If you want to ruin your own game enjoyment by using exploits and cheating, that's entirely your own choice, I totally agree with this.

What I am against is using exploits within a multiplayer version of the game.  For example you have a game that's been played in for a week, you have a dozen setup bases, built from your hard work and effort.

Then a new friend logs in, using a series of exploits and completely ruins your immersion of the game.  Thus essentially laughing in your face in their ignorance and putting you into the position of deciding if you now want to keep the new save, which has now been exploited to death or if you try to quarantine a given area and keep playing.  But just stay away from the part of the map where the exploits were used.

Now it seems to me, that those arguing for the right to exploit.. don't really care about anyone elses experience of playing the game, only their own.  I'm more interested in protecting my online rights and the immersion of my own created saves.  I see the use of mods and exploits as a complete ruination of my save, which would require me to restart.  I'm a puritan if you will, I prefer the original thought the vanilla gameplay.  I like to see what others think I could enjoy, rather than edit their ideas to my liking.  Which I see as a form of disrespect.

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I think there should be a feature to make a saved game private, and as a session admin, block/kick players from it. Maybe this will come when the dedicated servers are implemented later in this quarter?

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Lol, at my first try I copyed so much aluminium and copper that my savegame got destroyed by lag. I had fun while it lasted. This exploit is the first who can directly destroy a multiplayer game, griefers can crash the map in 2 minutes by mass duping aluminium and copper.

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