Omegasys

A Brilliant fix to the infinite fuel trading problem.

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Perhaps the fuel can be a bit more expensive to make. For example, you need to find hydrazine ore and feed it to the fuel condenser to created the rocket fuel canisters?

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Just now, WhosTog said:

Perhaps the fuel can be a bit more expensive to make. For example, you need to find hydrazine ore and feed it to the fuel condenser to created the rocket fuel canisters?

Neat idea! maybe call it a fuel refinery, and the crystals are unrefined Hydrazine. That would put it more in line with the rest of the systems.

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I really disagree with both the first nerf and calls for future nerfs to the trade / fuel system.   First, if people think it makes things too easy, there is a little thing called personal self-control.  Second, with or without the nerfs the problem is still making exploration for resources more compelling.   If one can't reliably go out and explore for resources and the button pushing solution is removed, people will quit because they are forced to use a system that is broken.    All the effort here should be on things that make the mining/exploration part of the game a less frustrating experience:  vehicle bug fixes and improvements, mining from the crane bug fixes and improvements, improved ways to navigate, a portable rover that attaches to a ship for mining expeditions without building up a base, etc.    The nerf is a bit like calling for the removal of blood pressure medicine to force people to lose weight or live a healthier life.  The solution causes more damage than it fixes.

 

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On 12/23/2016 at 0:27 AM, Slywyn said:

They already nerfed it. Just leave it alone. It doesn't break anything.

What is he talking about it completely breaks the game.  Once you have one fuel condenser and one trade platform there's zero reason to ever leave the base again.

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2 hours ago, Diabolus_Musica said:

What is he talking about it completely breaks the game.  Once you have one fuel condenser and one trade platform there's zero reason to ever leave the base again.

Explain? What does having unlimited resources get you exactly?

As far as I can see, it gets you nowhere.  Except alot of resources, you cannot use.

You still need to explore to find research.

You still need to explore to find the mini game, dynamite, iron ore, astrostuff and iridium etc.. the base resources allow you to setup a basic base and very little else.

You need to leave your base to go to other planets.  And explore there.

So that only leaves the rest of the game, finding all the exploration stuff. 

What I find laughable about this entire post, besides the reactions to my reaction, is that the gains you can get from pushing the button really aren't massive gains, you can get everything you need really easily, it's probably more work setting up a snowdrop like base to get continuous unlimited resources from the researched condenser than it is to go and get them manually.  Unlimited resources doesn't get you power.. and if you're building underground you still need to rebuild your unlimited system, wasting a huge amount of time and effort, for essentially nothing.  Those same resources could be used to get power to your base, finding the locations to get wind power setup or going to the surface for solar.   But instead you're going to spend all your game time, running in circles?

Other than the fact that is can be exploited and people have created quite bizarre ways to do so, the exploit isn't worth the effort. 

And the fact that those who believe the exploit is ruining the game.. seem incapable of understanding what self control means.  Don't do it.  Not exploiting.

As for changing the system.. yes, it could do with an ore.  But it doesn't need fuel to be removed as a tradeable, unless, it's only removed as an item you can trade with, not for.  Removing it completely, would mean people couldn't get fuel with the trader and if you haven't discovered the condenser.. that's kinda unfair. Some planets have less hydrazine than resin or compound, or it's protected or difficult to get at.  Not to mention the amounts you need for a dozen supply trips would require an insane amount of mining.   Do you really want to micro manage a tiny part of the game?

But the most important point in all of this.  Is why is there even an argument here, the entire fuel system could just be a placeholder for a different system down the line.   Balancing can be done down the line.   It really doesn't make sence to do it now, it's a waste of the developers time to do it now.  So why even discuss it? Why not leave as is and wait for content to be added, then as we approach release discuss balance issues, when they should be getting done.  And that's months, if not years away.

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I have to agree with Martin here. The game is in such early development. This balancing can be done much later after dealing with issues that are much more important at this point. I simply cannot understand why people think this is breaking such an unfinished game. As has been stated so many times, if you don't want to exploit the fuel condenser, then don't! Personally, I used it to get off of Terran after it was broken and 'cracked' by the last update. Started a new, now huge base inside a mountain on Exotic. Built a trading platform but no fuel condenser. Use it primarily to trade what I've found for very common resources that are very uncommon in my region. The size of my base and the fact that it's built inside a mountain I hollowed out is causing so much FPS drop, that it's getting to be unplayable. I'd much rather see pressing issues like FPS dealt with before balancing issues. The game needs to be stable first and foremost.

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At the end of the day fuel is way too cheap and easy to get, on which planet/world is fuel free? It should and must remain one of the most sort after resources in the game. After all in any modern world you are screwed without it. You don't ever go to any planet without checking if it has fuel or you have to take a huge payload of fuel with you, which means a bigger ship or less other resources that you need to survive.

In short fuel is worth a lot, costly to produce and a trading platform only works if there is someone to trade with, that has resources that you need.

Please keep it logical. 

Edited by HellHasNoFear

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Why is anyone using terms like 'nerf' or 'balance' anyway? This is (pre)- alpha, everything's available balanced or not, so you can test the features and core of the game.

"Pre-Alpha programs are made by developers to convey their basic concept and the idea behind the game to the consumers and investors. What kinda of a game it will be, what kind of genre, what kind of features you may expect in the game. It has bugs, not much of an interface and it may even be an actual demo running in the game engine but a video rendering of how gameplay would look like."  - quoted

If you find the trading post 'overpowered' (also a gaming term I never had to deal with or worry about), then you just don't use it - by choice.

You can do or not do anything you want right now, but understand it's all in there to test and play with and see what breaks.

If one player wants to 'trade' his way up to the top, who cares? If that's how he/she wants to play then let them.

I carved a mountain road up through the mountains to put a beacon up there... I could have dirt-elevatored my way up, but I didn't. I challenged myself out of my own free will just because I thought it would be more fun, and it most certainly was. I don't need a developer to, or not to, force me in any gaming direction, but rather give me access to tools to make my own experience. This is what Minecraft provided, and that is why it has become very popular.

The developers will give you the tools to have fun in the game, it's your choice whether you use them or not, but at least consider all players who may want a more casual approach.

I really don't care how they want to play, just like I don't care about one poster who wants to turn the planet into a cube shape - not something I would do, but if he has fun doing that, all power to him.

Now I have to be careful responding to these kind of posts, because I refuse to be one of those 'It's in alpha!" kind of guys.

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Yeah, but the devs are still looking for opinions and future features. Ps they are looking into a creative mode for those that are wanting to be creative. So those players that want to be creative can and those that want to play to a story can. So opinions about balance will matter. 

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I don't understand why people are getting so fussy over a "nerf" which everybody in their right mind should understand is needed. Understandably, it could have waited, perhaps, but it's not this horrendous thing that will ruin the game for everybody, especially when Creative Mode is down the line.

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1 minute ago, p1nkbr0 said:

I don't understand why people are getting so fussy over a "nerf" which everybody in their right mind should understand is needed. Understandably, it could have waited, perhaps, but it's not this horrendous thing that will ruin the game for everybody, especially when Creative Mode is down the line.

Down the line, waiting twice as long is now.  Bit of a difference.  And if you ignore using fuel as a trade item, then calculate the time you take to refuel a spaceship say 10 times to make supply runs.  Now double it.  Because it isn't an issue so much with making a small storage of fuel, it's an issue making 10 of them, no 20 now..

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3 minutes ago, Martin said:

Down the line, waiting twice as long is now.  Bit of a difference.  And if you ignore using fuel as a trade item, then calculate the time you take to refuel a spaceship say 10 times to make supply runs.  Now double it.  Because it isn't an issue so much with making a small storage of fuel, it's an issue making 10 of them, no 20 now..

Yes, I agree the time to take is a big hastle. Actually, it's really annoying, and hence why I said it could have probably waited. I think the change was necessary in the long run, but perhaps this wasn't the best way to change it. I think developing a crafting system for fuel would have been better. (Trading for hydrozine crystals much the same way you would copper, if need be)

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10 minutes ago, HellHasNoFear said:

Yeah, but the devs are still looking for opinions and future features. Ps they are looking into a creative mode for those that are wanting to be creative. So those players that want to be creative can and those that want to play to a story can. So opinions about balance will matter. 

You just finished agreeing with another poster that "The game needs to be stable first and foremost.". This is why some of us aren't concerned with 'nerfing' or 'balancing' (two of the worst words used in gaming today), when this is the stage to test features, and not spend any time 'fixing' them. Thats for later in the dev cycle.

7 minutes ago, p1nkbr0 said:

I don't understand why people are getting so fussy over a "nerf" which everybody in their right mind should understand is needed.

Because at this stage of development, is not the time to worry about refining. No one wants to waste time waiting 2 minutes to test a feature that can be done in 2 seconds. Imagine yourself testing a script you made to make something blink.. do you set it to 10 seconds to see if it blinks on or off, or save you time setting it to blink each 1 second? Then, if it's not blinking, you can return to the code instead of wasting 10 seconds of your life. Welcome to alpha... and this is PRE. sheesh.

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1 minute ago, ent|ty said:

Because at this stage of development, is not the time to worry about refining. No one wants to waste time waiting 2 minutes to test a feature that can be done in 2 seconds. Imagine yourself testing a script you made to make something blink.. do you set it to 10 seconds to see if it blinks on or off, or save you time setting it to blink each 1 second? Then, if it's not blinking, you can return to the code instead of wasting 10 seconds of your life. Welcome to alpha... and this is PRE. sheesh.

Never said it was, and in fact I had just agreed with the majority of the sentiments posted multiple times. Actually, I literally just agreed in the post prior. My comment was regarding the amount of people getting their panties in a knot since day 1 of this mess. But you can continue to assume I don't know how an Alpha works, thanks. :/

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5 minutes ago, ent|ty said:

You just finished agreeing with another poster that "The game needs to be stable first and foremost.". This is why some of us aren't concerned with 'nerfing' or 'balancing' (two of the worst words used in gaming today), when this is the stage to test features, and not spend any time 'fixing' them. Thats for later in the dev cycle.

Exactly, your point is? 

Also im pretty sure the devs know what comes first, without you guys trying to remind them. As you should have noticed that there is a thread for feature requests, so that tells me they are also looking for opinions on direction as well. 

It's also infuriating that you are suggesting that I want them to focus on features, when that is not what I said anywhere, I had an opinion on how it should work.

 

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 A little off topic, but, people keep talking about this "Creative Mode". Did anyone watch the Dec 22 Twitch stream? I'm pretty sure the devs said it was going to be a "Creative Update" that will add more features to the terrain tool, etc, that will allow people to be more creative. Creative "mode" may be available in the future, but I'm not sure it's what everyone thinks it's going to be in more recent updates.

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22 minutes ago, p1nkbr0 said:

Never said it was, and in fact I had just agreed with the majority of the sentiments posted multiple times. Actually, I literally just agreed in the post prior. My comment was regarding the amount of people getting their panties in a knot since day 1 of this mess. But you can continue to assume I don't know how an Alpha works, thanks. :/

36 minutes ago, p1nkbr0 said:

I don't understand why people are getting so fussy over a "nerf" which everybody in their right mind should understand is needed.

I was literally responding to this one line. I thought I answered appropriately, and never intended to be anything personal. The reason I answered how I did is because I respond to what I read, and don't make assumptions, and many people DO NOT understand what alpha means.

 

Edited by ent|ty

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1 minute ago, th3Raven said:

 A little off topic, but, people keep talking about this "Creative Mode". Did anyone watch the Dec 22 Twitch stream? I'm pretty sure the devs said it was going to be a "Creative Update" that will add more features to the terrain tool, etc, that will allow people to be more creative. Creative "mode" may be available in the future, but I'm not sure it's what everyone thinks it's going to be in more recent updates.

https://trello.com/b/UoZgKrd3/astroneer-road-map-planning

In the roadmap, it is listed under "Creative Suite" =)

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Just now, th3Raven said:

Very cool. Didn't know about that site, thanks! Now another to follow, lol. Still isn't tagged Priority ;)

Sadly, not. But do not fret. It is one of the major features planned! ;)

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The idea is good when taking the current build and design of the game into mind. But, if I recall. Hydrozene was first made from water as a physical resource (nugget), and not just from the air. They probably have the hydrozene to be made so easily to give the players an easy source for fuel to test and experience what it feels like to travel to many different planets in quick succession.

Also. If the Condenser stays as exploitable as it is, which I seriously doubt it will stay, seeing as how the devs have made a move to nerf it; then it pretty much makes the resource pockets strewn all over the planets pointless. It even makes the resources that are trapped in rocks a pointless mechanic as a gathering source because the effort for having to make a truck and attaching a crane, then a drill bit, THEN, driving out to gather those resources is far more than just using some copper to make a trading post and condenser. The issue with the condenser, in the game's current build (That is important to keep in mind) is that it offers too large of an exploitation and makes a few of the other mechanics near-pointless.

The argument of "Then don't use it" is a horrible argument as it means anything the devs do is not open for discussion or change. Anything they would put into the game could be responded to with, "Then don't use it! Don't play the game! Go find a different game!" It is anti-constructive and goes against what the devs want, as they have stated in past streams that they are looking to the community to make the game. I am paraphrasing, but they have said, "In order to make a good game, we need to listen to the community. Keeping the game in the dark before release is bad."

The original post, the first post, the point of even making the post, is to offer a suggestion. The devs choose to take this suggestion into consideration, and react accordingly.

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2 minutes ago, Devious_Oatmeal said:

The idea is good when taking the current build and design of the game into mind. But, if I recall. Hydrozene was first made from water as a physical resource (nugget), and not just from the air. They probably have the hydrozene to be made so easily to give the players an easy source for fuel to test and experience what it feels like to travel to many different planets in quick succession.

Also. If the Condenser stays as exploitable as it is, which I seriously doubt it will stay, seeing as how the devs have made a move to nerf it; then it pretty much makes the resource pockets strewn all over the planets pointless. It even makes the resources that are trapped in rocks a pointless mechanic as a gathering source because the effort for having to make a truck and attaching a crane, then a drill bit, THEN, driving out to gather those resources is far more than just using some copper to make a trading post and condenser. The issue with the condenser, in the game's current build (That is important to keep in mind) is that it offers too large of an exploitation and makes a few of the other mechanics near-pointless.

The argument of "Then don't use it" is a horrible argument as it means anything the devs do is not open for discussion or change. Anything they would put into the game could be responded to with, "Then don't use it! Don't play the game! Go find a different game!" It is anti-constructive and goes against what the devs want, as they have stated in past streams that they are looking to the community to make the game. I am paraphrasing, but they have said, "In order to make a good game, we need to listen to the community. Keeping the game in the dark before release is bad."

The original post, the first post, the point of even making the post, is to offer a suggestion. The devs choose to take this suggestion into consideration, and react accordingly.

A very well written, and level-headed response. Thank you! =)

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13 minutes ago, Devious_Oatmeal said:

The idea is good when taking the current build and design of the game into mind. But, if I recall. Hydrozene was first made from water as a physical resource (nugget), and not just from the air. They probably have the hydrozene to be made so easily to give the players an easy source for fuel to test and experience what it feels like to travel to many different planets in quick succession.

Also. If the Condenser stays as exploitable as it is, which I seriously doubt it will stay, seeing as how the devs have made a move to nerf it; then it pretty much makes the resource pockets strewn all over the planets pointless. It even makes the resources that are trapped in rocks a pointless mechanic as a gathering source because the effort for having to make a truck and attaching a crane, then a drill bit, THEN, driving out to gather those resources is far more than just using some copper to make a trading post and condenser. The issue with the condenser, in the game's current build (That is important to keep in mind) is that it offers too large of an exploitation and makes a few of the other mechanics near-pointless.

The argument of "Then don't use it" is a horrible argument as it means anything the devs do is not open for discussion or change. Anything they would put into the game could be responded to with, "Then don't use it! Don't play the game! Go find a different game!" It is anti-constructive and goes against what the devs want, as they have stated in past streams that they are looking to the community to make the game. I am paraphrasing, but they have said, "In order to make a good game, we need to listen to the community. Keeping the game in the dark before release is bad."

The original post, the first post, the point of even making the post, is to offer a suggestion. The devs choose to take this suggestion into consideration, and react accordingly.

THANK YOU. Good to see people get it.

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24 minutes ago, Devious_Oatmeal said:

The idea is good when taking the current build and design of the game into mind. But, if I recall. Hydrozene was first made from water as a physical resource (nugget), and not just from the air. They probably have the hydrozene to be made so easily to give the players an easy source for fuel to test and experience what it feels like to travel to many different planets in quick succession.

To pull this apart slightly, in the original "movies" Hydrazene was depicated as Ice Crystals, which were mined and passed via conveyor to the Condenser, which made fuel, to the shuttle.  It takes little leap of faith, that the current depiction of Hydrazene is still a crystal formation, that likely in some future patch, it'll be renamed to Ice again.

Quote

Also. If the Condenser stays as exploitable as it is, which I seriously doubt it will stay, seeing as how the devs have made a move to nerf it; then it pretty much makes the resource pockets strewn all over the planets pointless. It even makes the resources that are trapped in rocks a pointless mechanic as a gathering source because the effort for having to make a truck and attaching a crane, then a drill bit, THEN, driving out to gather those resources is far more than just using some copper to make a trading post and condenser. The issue with the condenser,

in the game's current build (That is important to keep in mind) is that it offers too large of an exploitation and makes a few of the other mechanics near-pointless.

Only if you play like this.  As said many a time, the key issue is choice, what you are "demanding" is for another's choice to be removed.  I only ever use 1 condenser per base, the reason for this is it is a Base Rule.. you cannot argue an exploit if you're using 10 or 5 or 2.. only 1.  So to all intents, if 1 is exploitable, then it is an exploit.  Being able to build 10 isn't important.  Bases can be limited by rules.  There isn't a game in existence that allows unlimited bases.  1 condenser to test the issue.  As shown in the snowdrop post, 10 condensers is easy to setup and it makes the nerf totally pointless.  In fact it makes all possible nerfs pointless, if you can just build more of them.

Quote

The argument of "Then don't use it" is a horrible argument as it means anything the devs do is not open for discussion or change. Anything they would put into the game could be responded to with, "Then don't use it! Don't play the game! Go find a different game!" It is anti-constructive and goes against what the devs want, as they have stated in past streams that they are looking to the community to make the game. I am paraphrasing, but they have said, "In order to make a good game, we need to listen to the community. Keeping the game in the dark before release is bad."

The original post, the first post, the point of even making the post, is to offer a suggestion. The devs choose to take this suggestion into consideration, and react accordingly.

Which brings us to this.  There is a simple resolution.  DON'T USE IT.  It is a simple choice, okay, I get it, by your and others continued posting that argument of "then don't use it" is a horrible argument... but it actually isn't.  It's the truth.  If you're too weak willed to not use an exploitable system.. that isn't my fault. Nor the fault of those who don't.  It's yours.  Why should our games be changed because you can't not use the exploit if it is exploitable?

This is only a multiplayer game in the form of a 4 player max coop.  It isn't an online mmo, it might become a more than 4 player coop, in which case, different rules can apply to such servers.  They don't need to apply to the entire game.  By saying you don't need to use an exploit, I am NOT saying don't play the game, or play someone else game.  Those are also your choices.  If someone asks you for 1 cup of water, they are not asking you for 2 or 3. So don't add extra statements where they don't exist.

And this whole issue, if it isn't apparent by now, is that people on one side are not making a suggestion, they're making a demand. 

Edited by Martin

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