Omegasys

A Brilliant fix to the infinite fuel trading problem.

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I, the genius that I am, have come up with an idea that is most likely already been thought of, but I figured I'd put it out there anyways. Obviously the easiest way to "beat the game" that is ASTRONEER is to make a fuel condenser and a trading post, so you can infinitely trade fuel for resources you actually want. The problem is, even though they cut the value of hydrazine in half trading wise, you can still cheese your way to success with just a little more patience. So instead of feasting upon piles of gouda, I suggest to the great devs at System Era that you completely remove the value of fuel in trading, and instead, require the trading post to be fueled before departure, as the seemingly infinite fuel source it has gives no real sense of "price to pay" other than trading away materials you obviously don't need. So by requiring fuel to use it, and making fuel pointless to trade, you encourage people to actually GATHER the resources they need, two birds with one stone.

The problem with this is that if you do happen to make this change, people won't find much value (or at the very least at lot less value than it has now) in building the trading post, which removes a useful element of the game. I think a way to help remedy this is to make resources value 1:1 with their respective rarities.

For example: 1 compound for 1 resin, 1 malachite for 1 laterite, 1 titanium for 1 lithium, etc.

This way, people who are on, say, a planet with scarce lithium, can still get their hands on useful resources such as titanium or coal in order to progress, without having to find excessive amounts of a resource that is just as rare.

Just for clarity's sake, say i'm having trouble finding any coal on this particular planet, but as luck would have it, the planet turns particularly slow, and being the prodigious user of stations, have found myself with a bunch of solar panels that aren't useful half of the time I'm on this rock. But I have a generator, and a small amount of extra lithium and titanium that I don't need. Now I need coal to continue using my equipment, so I go to the trader, fuel her up, put my stack of lithium and titanium on there, and receive two coal. Now I'm happy, because I can continue working on my progress without feeling like a sack of crap because i gave away 2 rares for 1 rare. 

I believe this is the way you can keep the value of the trader, as well as keep, if not increase the value of the fuel condenser, as you need it to fuel more than just your ship.

 

P.S.: I'm gonna hate this change, because I too enjoy mozzarella, but I believe this to be a good way of keeping the core gameplay loop centered around exploration instead of centered around a fuel condenser, as well as helping prevent the game from becoming too easy.

P.P.S. (And the reason for the "minor bug" tag on it): I reloaded my save and went to one of my shuttles which had a habitat pod on it, which I had planned to use on another planet, but it decided while I was gone (aka loading the save) to embed itself right then and there, right on top of the shuttle, so it's now useless to me. Thankfully habitat pods aren't too difficult to make (let's keep it that way), but I know this could affect a lot of people who are planning to move onto another planet, and get screwed over because compound is hard to find, shuttle gets stuck, etc. 

 

P.P.P.S.: Attached is a screen shot i took with the intention of making it a nice desktop background. I think it came out pretty swell. Enjoy!

ASTRONEER.png

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It kinda does actually. Nerfing it isn't good enough. All they did was make it take longer to get the resources you want. You can still sit in your base and get all the materials you want, it just takes a little longer for you to get them. Still discourages the core gameplay loop for a lot of people who don't feel like playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

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The way you want to balance the fuel condenser/trading post sounds rather good. 

But I think the way the fuel condenser works right now is just a placeholder.

 

PS: I'd really enjoy reading a book that you've written with all sorts of cheese thrown randomly into the mix :D 

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Thank you! I try to keep my suggestions both entertaining and constructive :D

And yes, I know the condenser right now is placeholder, this is a suggestion intended to provide a solid basis for the condenser, or rather, be an idea for what the condenser should be to replace the current placeholder.

Edited by Omegasys

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30 minutes ago, Omegasys said:

It kinda does actually. Nerfing it isn't good enough. All they did was make it take longer to get the resources you want. You can still sit in your base and get all the materials you want, it just takes a little longer for you to get them. Still discourages the core gameplay loop for a lot of people who don't feel like playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

I'm somewhat confused, how do you use a trader to get research items?

How does a trader get you to other planets?

How does a trader get you into lower caves to find unique items?

At some point you have to play the game.. if you want to stand all day pushing a button.. that's your business.  Personally, I like exploring, but I also like to be able to just get that 1 copper I couldn't find in the caves or that 1 aluminium.   That's what I use the trader for.  So what if I use condensed air to get it.  I still need to actually fly somewhere to goto arid planet or radiated etc.

What you're actually suggesting is a change in the game that suits you instead of leaving it to the devs to make these kinds of changes later on.   It really isn't important if the trader uses 1 fuel per titanium or 8.  But the end result is that people are now standing for twice as long to make the same amount of fuel to fill their ships, because people couldn't play the game properly and chose to make it sound like everyone was playing the way they were.  Which just isn't the case.  So as a result, many of us now feel displeased because we're your victims.  Victims of your mongering over issues that were never issues.

The worst issue with this is it is now discouraging people from even playing the game, simply because they don't want to stand in front of the condenser for twice as long as before, it was long enough before. Now it's twice as long enough, which is too much for some who are turning to other games as a result.

Edited by Martin

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11 minutes ago, Martin said:

I'm somewhat confused, how do you use a trader to get research items?

How does a trader get you to other planets?

How does a trader get you into lower caves to find unique items?

At some point you have to play the game.. if you want to stand all day pushing a button.. that's your business.  Personally, I like exploring, but I also like to be able to just get that 1 copper I couldn't find in the caves or that 1 aluminium.   That's what I use the trader for.  So what if I use condensed air to get it.  I still need to actually fly somewhere to goto arid planet or radiated etc.

What you're actually suggesting is a change in the game that suits you instead of leaving it to the devs to make these kinds of changes later on.   It really isn't important if the trader uses 1 fuel per titanium or 8.  But the end result is that people are now standing for twice as long to make the same amount of fuel to fill their ships, because people couldn't play the game properly and chose to make it sound like everyone was playing the way they were.  Which just isn't the case.  So as a result, many of us now feel displeased because we're your victims.  Victims of your mongering over issues that were never issues.

Whoa there buddy, slow down. I don't know why you're so angsty. I don't like fuel taking twice as long either, and I am like you, I actually enjoy playing the game. It should be understood that research items obviously need to be found, but once people research everything they need, there is nothing stopping them from turning the game from challenging to easy mode.

My intention with this suggestion is to encourage people to play like you and I, where people go deep into caves looking for rare resources and unresearched items. And I completely agree with you on the use of the trader, but as long as fuel is viable for trade, so will cheesing the game.

I want to actually have to pay for that 1 resource because that resource is valuable to me. I shouldn't be "oh i need this one rare resource that's hard to find, let me go make some free money and trade for it", but rather; "Hmm, well let me see what i'm willing to give up for this resource, what do I need? what do I not?". Give and take, not take.

Whether the game suits me or not and whether the devs make the changes now or later on doesn't matter, because in the end, whatever changes they make will be made, regardless or when or how.

You aren't a "victim" of anything but the devs' placeholder solution. I think the time and power required should be reduced to what it was, but fuel being tradeable cannot stay if this game is to be fair and challenging. Don't antagonize people just because you're upset about the recent update. Keep it friendly ^^.

Edited by Omegasys

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40 minutes ago, Omegasys said:

It kinda does actually. Nerfing it isn't good enough. All they did was make it take longer to get the resources you want. You can still sit in your base and get all the materials you want, it just takes a little longer for you to get them. Still discourages the core gameplay loop for a lot of people who don't feel like playing the game the way it was meant to be played.

 

You can choose not to use it. Makes the game too easy? Don't use it. It's not hard to understand.

If people want to use it, they're not hurting anyone but themselves.

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The point is, you're suggesting stuff is changed that isn't broken.   Let people play however they want, it's their time, their game.  If they want to stand all day pushing a button, that's their business.  As it is, all this complaining about possible exploits has messed up the game for everyone else.

If this was a released game, I'd agree completely with you.  But it isn't it's barely into Ea.  All we need now are bare bones system, for all intents the trader should work purely 1 for 1 of anything, it doesn't matter if you're not challenged, all that matters is that the design system works.  Balance can be done months down the line.

Edited by Martin

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"You can choose not to use it."

Sure, you can also choose to play creative mode when that is released! ^^

Changes like this won't ruin the game for everyone else, as the game is supposed to be challenging, and finding rare resources is supposed to be rewarding, as opposed to: "Meh, I could've just traded a bunch of free fuel to get this." The only people this "ruins the game" for is people who use it. That's not to say I agree with fuel taking twice as long to make, just that fuel being tradeable, and the fact that you can make it for free, isn't ok. i figured this kind of change would be more interesting than making it 8 fuel for 1 compound. At which point it might as well be removed from the game anyways.

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Wow... this escalated rather quickly here, but I'm on Omegasys side here.

I'd really like everyone else to tell me what they're doing ingame other than pushing buttons?

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It isn't a game yet.  It's a bunch of mechanics that work together.  Most of the game probably hasn't even been conceived yet.

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The road map, as far as i can tell, is what the devs want the game to be, so I imagine SE has a pretty good idea of what the game is going to/meant to be.

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Just now, Martin said:

It isn't a game yet.  It's a bunch of mechanics that work together.  Most of the game probably hasn't even been conceived yet.

So why are you getting so upset about it?

Those mechanics are getting changed, pretty sure.

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I'm upset.. because I'm now waiting twice as long to refuel, because people want a challenge in an Ea. Instead of playing the game, they want to organise it for everyone else.

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Just now, Martin said:

I'm upset.. because I'm now waiting twice as long to refuel, because people want a challenge in an Ea. Instead of playing the game, they want to organise it for everyone else.

The fuel creation time is a placeholder "solution". I agree that it should be reduced to it's previous values.

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4 minutes ago, Omegasys said:

The road map, as far as i can tell, is what the devs want the game to be, so I imagine SE has a pretty good idea of what the game is going to/meant to be.

Do you actually think they have done all the coding, all the art work? have all the ideas? Really? Seriously..?

Most of it is still in idea form, that's what a road map is, a list of ideas.  All that work is still a long way off, plenty of time for balancing trade ships.

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All we did was suggesting it. In the end it's still up to System Era what they "organise for everyone else", and they said more than once what they want it to be.

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Just now, Martin said:

Do you actually think they have done all the coding, all the art work? have all the ideas? Really? Seriously..?

Most of it is still in idea form, that's what a road map is, a list of ideas.  All that work is still a long way off, plenty of time for balancing trade ships.

OBVIOUSLY it's not coded, that's the whole point of it being a road map, to show us what they plan on working on. The point is that they have a pretty solid idea of what they want the game to be.

I honestly have no clue why you keep thinking I said they should move on. This post is all about balancing the trade ship. And like the road map, it's an idea.

Come on, you gotta be open to ideas.

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3 minutes ago, Snafu said:

All we did was suggesting it. In the end it's still up to System Era what they "organise for everyone else", and they said more than once what they want it to be.

^^^^^Bingo. Snafu know's what's up.

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Ich finde es gut das auf das Problem, mit dem eintauschen von Treibstoff zu allem anderem, reagiert wird indem man die Kosten verdoppelt hat, es löst das zugrunde liegende Problem aber nicht. Da die Erzeugung nun halt doppelt solange dauert(Wiederaufladung des Treibstoffkonverters) und doppelt so teuer ist baut man sich halt einfach 2-3 Treibstoffkonverter und halt entsprechend Energieerzeuger und Batterien und nichts hat sich geändert ausser das die ganze anlage nur etwas an Grösse gewonnnen hat.
Solange man Treibstoff im Handelszenter eintauschen kann gegen alles andere ist man nicht gezwungen selber Material abbauen zu gehn. Letztendlich kann man mit einer unendlichen Waren Handeltreiben, was niemals gut für ein Wirtschaftssystem ist.
Entweder untersagt man den Handel mit Treibstoff vollkommen(einfachste Lösung) oder min. eine der beiden benötigten Forschungen kann nur auf einem anderem Planeten gefunden werden sodas man gewisse Vorarbeit geleistet haben muss und danach halt nurnoch eine Spielerleichterung eintritt.
In der jetzigen Form ist es nicht brauchbar auf Dauer aus meiner Sicht.

(Google)

I think it is good to the problem, with the exchange of fuel to everything else, is reacting by the cost has doubled, but it does not solve the underlying problem. Since the production is now twice as long (recharge the fuel converter) and twice as expensive is to build just 2-3 fuel converter and stop corresponding to power generators and batteries and nothing has changed except that the whole system only a little in size.
As long as you can exchange fuel in the commercial center against anything else, you are not forced to go off material yourself. Ultimately, one can handle an infinite commodity, which is never good for an economic system.
Either the trade with fuel is prohibited completely (simplest solution) or min. One of the two researches needed can only be found on a different planet so that you have to have done some preparatory work and thereafter only a hints of the player.
In the present form it is not usable in the long run from my point of view.

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And now we're back on topic. Possible ways to improve and balance it.

This said, I still like Omegasys idea.

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Yes. I really think this idea along with reducing the time and power cost of fuel making to what it was is what this game needs for balance and improved gameplay overall.

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I don't think it should be nerf it anymore until there is a fix for horrible fps.  Especially on console.! 

I used the trade station to  progress through the game and test a few things then start a new file becuase on console after your first base you might as well start over due to loss of frames.  And that's without use of tethers. If it's nerfed anymore.  I'll be forced to tether up and play through massive frame lag just to go and get a few things.  Literally take hours on a base playing through lag and have the file disappear after my first log off?   At least with the old trade center I didn't have to worry to much about restarting from scratch becuase I could remake  somewhat quickly.  

Yes it is op.  Yes it should be changed but not right now.  We should be focusing on game breaking lag instead of values of fuel canisters that actually provide a way around lagwall so people can actually test.  

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I agree with Omegasys. The way it is right now makes what the fuel should be used for more of a chore and currently it makes gathering resources too easy. It does not just hurt the people that use this exploit. It goes both ways. The people that use this to get resources hurt themselves by severely shortening gameplay. If you want items given to you for free, then exploiting the fuel condenser is not your solution. You need a new game mode that gives them to you then, such as creative. Go ask for that instead. Right now gameplay is made less fun for everyone because of this fuel trading. Those that don't use it and actually traded other resources, the ones that they played the game to get them instead of standing and pushing a button, know in the back of their mind that there were easier ways to get those resources. That takes away some of the enjoyment out of the game. And it can get to the point where you slowly give in and do start to trade fuel. And then guess what? Now the game, instead of being diverse and fun, has become a fuel grinding game. The game soon gets old and boring and you move on to something else that is less fun than what this game could have been if you did not get all those things for free. Like I said before, if you want things free, ask for a creative mode. Right now this game mechanic will hurt the game more overall than it helps it. The few people that would like this to stay in the game have other ways to get what they want without breaking the game for everyone else. That being said, I do still think you should be able to trade fuel, but at a very low value. One low enough that you can only trade a full shuttle of fuel for 1 or 2 common items. If trading only fuel, you will be unable to trade for any rare items unless you are trading more than just fuel.

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