thevlad

Oxygen should not be infinite

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The fastest way to kill a good game is to make exploreing a CHORE. Look at say, we happy few - exploring consumes precious resources and rarely replenishes the consumed resources, and rarely rewards you with something worth it. More realistic, maybe, but it's a chore when you have to stop exploring and having fun because you need to gather some basic required resource constantly.

You want to encourage exploration, not punish it. Running out of resin encourages me to explore to find more, and who knows what you'll find along the way! Running out of oxyagen PREVENTS you from exploring, and if you are out before you find more you're screwed. This belongs in a hardcore "punish me" mode, but definitely not in the main mode

Edited by MCorgano

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I really like the idea of the O2 being limited. Lets face it, it's the most basic resource we need and so if this was not just there all the time it would add a level of urgency to the game.

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What about if the habitat and vehicles have built in oxygen filtration. That way on the starting planet, nothing changes. 

But if you are on a planet or moon without oxygen, you have to either bring oxygen or gather it through methods like mining ice for water and using power to separate oxygen through electrolysis.

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The last time I played it was able to run out of oxygen on a rover if you drained the power down to nothing . Belive me we have a few things that can cause us to overextend our stays and die . Imho lets try and get the game a little further along before we try to hamper our selfs on the small details like oxygen. Depending on the world generation some of them are a little harder then others.

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12 hours ago, MCorgano said:

The fastest way to kill a good game is to make exploreing a CHORE. Look at say, we happy few - exploring consumes precious resources and rarely replenishes the consumed resources, and rarely rewards you with something worth it. More realistic, maybe, but it's a chore when you have to stop exploring and having fun because you need to gather some basic required resource constantly.

You want to encourage exploration, not punish it. Running out of resin encourages me to explore to find more, and who knows what you'll find along the way! Running out of oxyagen PREVENTS you from exploring, and if you are out before you find more you're screwed. This belongs in a hardcore "punish me" mode, but definitely not in the main mode

+1 so true.

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12 hours ago, MCorgano said:

The fastest way to kill a good game is to make exploreing a CHORE. Look at say, we happy few - exploring consumes precious resources and rarely replenishes the consumed resources, and rarely rewards you with something worth it. More realistic, maybe, but it's a chore when you have to stop exploring and having fun because you need to gather some basic required resource constantly.

You want to encourage exploration, not punish it. Running out of resin encourages me to explore to find more, and who knows what you'll find along the way! Running out of oxyagen PREVENTS you from exploring, and if you are out before you find more you're screwed. This belongs in a hardcore "punish me" mode, but definitely not in the main mode

I like your point, the oxygen resource being a chore to maintain would be detrimental, however the ideas I've liked for how to implement limited oxygen can potentially be made to require very little upkeep once they are built.

My current favorite would require the addition of infotext about the planets to make sense.  If the Terran world is marked as having extremely thin oxygen then a Compressor Platform (and vehicle attachment) could be set up quickly and cheaply (during Tutorial please!) to provide infinite oxygen in the same manner that we have already.  Then, on other planets the thin oxygen wouldn't be available and conquering new planets would involve figuring out how to generate renewable oxygen there.  In fact, with this system the same Compressor Platform could be used to generate Hydrazine on planets with a volatile atmosphere (Say, Radiated or the Gas Giant Planet that I hope to see eventually) if the Fuel Condenser is removed or made to operate on inserted crystals.

Edited by CherubimCW

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13 hours ago, MCorgano said:

The fastest way to kill a good game is to make exploreing a CHORE. Look at say, we happy few - exploring consumes precious resources and rarely replenishes the consumed resources, and rarely rewards you with something worth it. More realistic, maybe, but it's a chore when you have to stop exploring and having fun because you need to gather some basic required resource constantly.

You want to encourage exploration, not punish it. Running out of resin encourages me to explore to find more, and who knows what you'll find along the way! Running out of oxyagen PREVENTS you from exploring, and if you are out before you find more you're screwed. This belongs in a hardcore "punish me" mode, but definitely not in the main mode

Simple fix: Oxygen should be limited, but consumption of it would be slower

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9 minutes ago, SpacePotatoe said:

Simple fix: Oxygen should be limited, but consumption of it would be slower

Honestly, I like the rate that it is consumed right now.  It feels appropriate to the scale of the world and the speed of gameplay in Astroneer.  The main element that would require tuning is the amount of oxygen stored in your Habitat/Spaceship, because that's the timer for how long you have to understand and build the equipment necessary for each planet's oxygen supply.  Obviously, too long would be better than too short, but until it's implemented I have no suggestions for estimating how long to make said supply last.

Though, it should definitely last for at least one Terran night cycle, so that if your generator is running on Solar with no batteries you might run low, but never run out.  (and the Compressor Platform I described earlier should be able to operate on only 1 or 2 small solar panels when processing Oxygen so you don't also need the Printer to make it work)

Edited by CherubimCW

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I would like to see this as an Added Feature


However, there are some people that do not enjoy being under constant stress of depleting oxygen as MCorgano stated.

Perhaps this could find its way into the game as a different gamemode like Survival.
This could also be incorperated if Difficulty becomes an option in the game, I heard someone started a topic on that

Edited by ProsciuttoKnight

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I agree, although I hate games that make you grind at the beginning and I feel like this is what it would do. You would be on a time limit to get as much of [material here] at the beginning or else it's game over.

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6 hours ago, BertMcfallen said:

I agree, although I hate games that make you grind at the beginning and I feel like this is what it would do. You would be on a time limit to get as much of [material here] at the beginning or else it's game over.

Well, I think the best configuration for my suggested Oxygen Compressor would be for it to be as simple as possible so it can be worked into a tutorial.  Here's a compound deposit, pick up 3.  Here's a resin deposit, pick up 4.  It's scripted so you get these exact amounts easily.  Build a Node, 1 resin.  Build a second node off of the first (new players NEED to be stopped from locking themselves into their habitat), 1 resin.  Turn the second node into a platform, 2 resin.  Build the O2 Compressor, 2 compound.   Build a solar panel, 1 compound.  Slap that on there.  You've now learned basic power, oxygen, construction, printing, and collecting, all in under 2 minutes.  From that point, Oxygen is available from the main base as plentifully as it is now.

Edited by CherubimCW

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On 12/21/2016 at 9:35 AM, thevlad said:

Punish the player for having bought the game by screwing them over on O2

That's a great idea.

Why not make your own game and do it?

 

Do you honestly think that sustainable O2 wouldn't be the one of the, if not THE first things people would do for planetary exploration?

 

If you want to punish people for being gamers, just buy them "Dark Souls: Prepare to Die edition" on Steam

Edited by Sebine

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1 hour ago, Sebine said:

That's a great idea.

Why not make your own game and do it?

 

Do you honestly think that sustainable O2 wouldn't be the one of the, if not THE first things people would do for planetary exploration?

 

If you want to punish people for being gamers, just buy them "Dark Souls: Prepare to Die edition" on Steam

Everyone has his own preferences. Personally I'd love to see limited oxygen (as well as food and water). I am pretty sure there will be different modes for different difficulties. That way you can choose what you want.

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having oxygen in tanks would be great if the vehicles would be created for it such.
like not taking up any slots and has it own slot.
+ lasts x2 longer then battery and can hold more, but is much slower to fill up.

 

that would be mostly my request if limited stuff would be added.

Edited by Freddy

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I think the O2 system should be kept largely as it is.  That said, I like the idea of changing the connection tethers, to specific types, ie O2 only or O2/Energy, could also add larger tethers which might come in a coil and extend upto 10x the normal distance.  Costing 10x the resources etc.

O2 intake needs to be balanced between keeping the game interesting, whilst also not making it so frustrating, that people just drop the game after a few hours, because basic systems are just too frustrating to use.

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On 12/27/2016 at 2:45 AM, MCorgano said:

The fastest way to kill a good game is to make exploreing a CHORE. Look at say, we happy few - exploring consumes precious resources and rarely replenishes the consumed resources, and rarely rewards you with something worth it. More realistic, maybe, but it's a chore when you have to stop exploring and having fun because you need to gather some basic required resource constantly.

You want to encourage exploration, not punish it. Running out of resin encourages me to explore to find more, and who knows what you'll find along the way! Running out of oxyagen PREVENTS you from exploring, and if you are out before you find more you're screwed. This belongs in a hardcore "punish me" mode, but definitely not in the main mode

We Happy Few suffered from poor RNG and lack of actual direction and explanation in-game. i enjoy We Happy Few to a degree of what it was going for artistically, but gameplay-wise it is a little disappointing and has a few flaws that it needs to tackle. But your second point is right, except for not being in the main mode. I'll talk about this more, down further.

On 12/27/2016 at 3:55 PM, SpacePotatoe said:

Simple fix: Oxygen should be limited, but consumption of it would be slower

Part of the reason that Oxygen goes away so quickly is due to the tethers and their lengths. If you could survive for a long time away from tethers, they would basically become pointless. And the 'point of no return' grows with the longer it takes for air to run out. There's also the existence of the tanks, which last as long as your normal tank and basically double your air.

 

The idea that Oxygen is only limited while away from a safe-spot (Base/Vehicle/Tether) gives tension to exploration, atop of other factors that make exploration fun. As some have mentioned, having a solution to a lack of oxygen would have been solved for traveling to other planets and systems. Otherwise, it would be impossible to travel long distances in space.

Personally, the idea that certain planets work with the 'air-making machine' and some don't, sounds pretty good... in theory. Then we have issues like, suffocating then respawning, just to die moments later because there's no air. And if one did not prepare fuel beforehand, they may be stuck on that planet, constantly dying. It's a vicious cycle at that point and it would be frustrating; you go explore a planet, then die because you didn't know. That, right there, is perhaps one of the most annoying and frustrating things that a game can have. That's not even Dark Souls level of annoying, it's worse. That would be like playing Dark Souls, then having to start your whoooole game over because of some random thing that killed you. That's like playing a game, saving, then right when you exit the save screen you are killed, then forced to relive it every time you try to continue. That's just poor design and placement.

But the core idea that we should probably be basing the oxygen off of is, when away from safety, then there is tension. And there should always be a home base that is not too far away. In this case, at least on the planet that you died.

Edited by Devious_Oatmeal

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5 minutes ago, Devious_Oatmeal said:

Personally, the idea that certain planets work with the 'air-making machine' and some don't, sounds pretty good... in theory. Then we have issues like, suffocating then respawning, just to die moments later because there's no air.

My suggestion for avoiding this (assuming that the respawn points, Habitats and Spaceships, are where your primary oxygen tank is stored as I've been assuming in my descriptions) is that a respawn point is marked invalid when it has no oxygen supply, causing you to default back to the original Habitat on Terran.  This would at least prevent a game being entirely lost to a doomed expedition, and you've hopefully learned by then what supplies you need to take with you to that planet on the second try.

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I have mixed feelings about this idea. Currently, I think there's enough play with oxygen that you still have to pay attention to what you're doing/which resources you carry around with you (compound). I do like the idea of vehicles not having infinite oxygen unless they were equipped with an appropriate module. I also like the idea of different planets having different effects on oxygen/oxygen availability. I think changing this too drastically could degrade the game; however, some changes could enhance the immersion of survival. I don't think the idea should be written off.

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This is honestly not a terribly futuristic game, the rocket fuel is hydrazine for gods sake, i really cant think of anything done in the game that isnt more or less how NASA would do it now if it had the resources. Probably the research facility and the 3d printer are the most futuristic aspects, as we lack advance analytic AI, and even the most advanced 3d printers and CNC machines capable of using materials besides resin need to build a thing part by part. So I think limited O2 is a good idea. It doesnt need to be anywhere near as complicated as has been sugested so far. Just have a full sized air filter available in the 3d printer and make it cost 2 Lithium. With how many 2 node platforms you end up with from laying out your base, we need more items available from the 3d printer anyway, and Lithium hydroxide can catalytically strip the carbon out of carbon dioxide pretty much infinitely in a closed system if you have enough of it.

If you wanted to be super realistic just put a 2% loss on the filter to account for micro permiability and catalytic loss.

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We could just have a system like what Subnautica uses, where when you start the game you choose the level of difficulty and which survival elements you want in place. I do appreciate this adds strain to the developers to balance the game for all 'modes'.

I personally think the finite O2 is a good idea and here's why. How many times have you played a game like Oblivion or the Witcher 3 where the core challenge of the game disappears due to levelling up. The exploration then starts to feel pointless and dull. I'm not saying give players 3 minutes to get O2 plants working from the second they land, but make O2 something the player needs to consider. 

Let's face it, right now the atmosphere and planet are the main characters of the game. Most developers would take the easy route to 'challenge' and add mobs. What if the planet was the challenge. I'm talking about dynamic volcanic activity, gas pockets that blow pieces of the surface into orbit (and if your friends can get to you in time save you), sunlight that heats the surface up (think Riddick) and so on. When you go in this direction your supply of O2 becomes the game's currency and the reminder you're not sat on earth watching your garden grow. You're in a hostile environment and having to O2 to consider would take away the key motivator for the player.

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On 4.1.2017 at 3:23 AM, Martin said:

I think the O2 system should be kept largely as it is.  That said, I like the idea of changing the connection tethers, to specific types, ie O2 only or O2/Energy, could also add larger tethers which might come in a coil and extend upto 10x the normal distance.  Costing 10x the resources etc.

O2 intake needs to be balanced between keeping the game interesting, whilst also not making it so frustrating, that people just drop the game after a few hours, because basic systems are just too frustrating to use.

making even more tethers you know that is a bad idea right? (upgrades for it could be fine)
but adding more like that will be a problem for spec's out there and it would look messy as hell with all of them placed by multiple people everywhere.

Also it can be more time consuming, so just like you said keep it fun and don't make people mess around one problem even though each planet should have a bigger hinder to overcome.

On 4.1.2017 at 10:31 AM, Genophix said:

We could just have a system like what Subnautica uses, where when you start the game you choose the level of difficulty and which survival elements you want in place. I do appreciate this adds strain to the developers to balance the game for all 'modes'.

Let's face it, right now the atmosphere and planet are the main characters of the game. Most developers would take the easy route to 'challenge' and add mobs. What if the planet was the challenge. I'm talking about dynamic volcanic activity, gas pockets that blow pieces of the surface into orbit (and if your friends can get to you in time save you), sunlight that heats the surface up (think Riddick) and so on.

well the dev's have talked about "gamemodes" from survival to diff and "god mode".

ofc some of these things are to come later on, how they will do it I don't know.

 

easy route is mobs?... mobs can be both "easy" and hard to add (if you add them in and know what they would be used for and how to make them like)

Planets challanges are fine, but they mostly would need to be area specific to events.

But they would less of challange there and then (something that can challange you right there)

Like think of not all of them are hostile or "pew pew pew" but more like animals or the planets uniqe life forms that can act in strange behaviors.

From birds that could *zaps* your equipment to areas where a Yeti could appear?
These creatures also gives an feeling and what lives there to make it more uniqe and how to deal with what lives there.

 

You might be able to build your way or know of the things that can happen on the planet but not what these life forms could do.

Would they develop/evolve?
Could you research them?
Could you deal with them in other ways?
Should you hunt them?
Is there something effecting them or the planet that could effect each other?

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The idea of a finite amount of oxygen is only acceptable if there is a mid-game/late-game research that allows us to bypass it, or if there is an item like the solar panel or wind turbine that magically generates oxygen (considering this is a game where you have a magic deform tool, this doesn't seem so far fetched). In the game's current state (with what little we have), I think infinite oxygen is fine, however in a finite oxygen system would have to mean your current tools (filters and titanium oxygen tanks) do a lot more than they currently do.

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On 21-12-2016 at 5:06 PM, Mica said:

In a game with such advanced futuristic capabilities, O2 i would think is one of the fundamental hurdles that tech has covered for long term space exploration.

 

i most certaily agree, wich idiot (when not equiped and skilled like in the game) would go out in space on its own without being able to make oxygen, btw some planets could have oxygen

p.s. 

the ISS also has oxygen filters so they have infinite, lets keep the game a little fun ey, not spending all your time building and then think hey i want to build another base, and having to build everything again

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