SES_joe

"Experimental Test 002: Terrain As A Resource" – August 11th, 2017

50 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, GizmoGomez said:

I liked the idea of burning sediment in a generator to get power (it's innovative and cool) but I dunno how that would affect game balance. Kinda just adds busy work to get free power. May as well go back to the trickle charge and cut out the extra steps. Plus we already have the organic generator. 

You dont get power from sediment, you get ressources!

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6 hours ago, Feuerwalze said:

You dont get power from sediment, you get ressources!

+1

I would love to see the sediment platform have a position for each resource .... you don't get any choice what filters out.... as the machine processes materials nuggets are condensed at what ever rate the sediment contained materials.    When a nugget is complete it falls off into a hopper and the next starts to form.... this way people learn what dirt they want to mine.

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6 hours ago, Feuerwalze said:

You dont get power from sediment, you get ressources!

But you can burn sediment and you can turn heat into power. Personally, I think @GizmoGomez idea is a good alternative to the current (pun intended) magical trickle charging and would allow digging to require power again. 

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Burning sediment takes energy.... so making energy from energy is a bit suspect....  I still like the trickle charge from the back pack

 

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Burning thousand year old sand? *g* I am with my dudes that sediment should not be a source of energy. That just does not make a lot of sense (except for coal or biomass, and both is already there). 

The idea that the "filter takes what it gets" as suggested by @KeeblerOrc is one idea, however, I think it removes one of these puzzle-like-things that you have to think a bit more about what you need. In this case you would never waste sediment, as it would always fill up a partial nugget until it's full. If you have to decide what you would like to get out you have to make (even if it is just a small) decision. Wasting 4 resin out of a tank but get one lithium? Or should I take the lithium? If I burn the lithium (sediment): do I know where I got the sediment from? Can i easily get there and pick up some more? Or did I already remove the whole material? 

I personally think that's a bit more Astroneer-Like and would/does add some more value to the survival character of the game.

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I get where your coming from Reto the difference is if the Sediment Processor is just a machine the puzzle your asking for is in the dirt itself....  which I feel makes better sense... you run around collecting samples of dirt.... process and repeat till you find deposits of what your looking for.....  

In my Opinion the Trade Platform is being deemed Magic and being replaces with the Sediment Processor which in its own way is just as Magic.  Remember Opinions are like Belly Buttons..... Everybody has one.

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Still the multiplayer crash to desktop every 5 min is a killer. Please investigate into a sollution for this.

Steam, win10 with keys & mouse.

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3 hours ago, KeeblerOrc said:

Burning sediment takes energy.... so making energy from energy is a bit suspect....  I still like the trickle charge from the back pack

 

That's true, but once you've kick started the burn from your backpack's energy then adding more fuel should continue the burn and could generate energy to power the terrain tool. I have a camp stove that works like this; once burning initially it will keep generating some electricity if I keep adding fuel and keep the flame going. 

I think whatever solution is implemented there will be some logical disconnect somewhere. As long as the gameplay mechanic works then I'm not bothered by that.

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4 hours ago, Dojec said:

Still the multiplayer crash to desktop every 5 min is a killer. Please investigate into a sollution for this.

Steam, win10 with keys & mouse.

Would love to see a crash report and details for this. 

can email to me joe@systemera.net

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8 hours ago, time_trial said:

That's true, but once you've kick started the burn from your backpack's energy then adding more fuel should continue the burn and could generate energy to power the terrain tool. I have a camp stove that works like this; once burning initially it will keep generating some electricity if I keep adding fuel and keep the flame going. 

I think whatever solution is implemented there will be some logical disconnect somewhere. As long as the gameplay mechanic works then I'm not bothered by that.

Really, it all comes down to a few variables:

Is there trickle charge? Yes/no, and how much? (If there is, it'd be an RTG in the pack using radiation to make power)

Does using the terrain tool require power? yes/no, and how much? (If using it does not require power, there's an RTG in the terrain tool itself, powering its normal functions. Augments require more power than it can generate, so it needs to use the backpack power as well). 

Does burning off sediment generate power? yes/no, and how much?

(Honestly, I don't think sediment should generate power; it'd look like using the terrain tool gave you free energy, which is the opposite of what it used to do. People would be very confused and it's just an odd feature to include imo (even though having a mini dirt fusion generator thing would be sweet from a technical standpoint). I'll look at the other two variables based on sediment not generating power.) 

---(Trickle charge? / Tool uses power?)---

Yes, yes: same setup as we had originally. We could decrease the amount of power that the terrain tool had in order to make it last longer and for the trickle charge to keep up with the usage better. The problem is that we still get free power, and I think having it be more limited/less passive would be cool, especially with augments, etc using power and stuff. 

No, yes: Why would we even consider this???

Yes, no: Wow, power is never going to be an issue. Dang. OP much?

No, no: same as we have in the exp. build 2. We can't really tweak values because there are none. We can dig forever, buuut any augments will restrict our digging significantly. I like this best of the four. 

 

Buuut, just had an idea for a fifth option which I may like better, depending on execution:

How about the terrain tool doesn't use any power to function, but it requires power to be in your battery to function (ie behaving exactly like the helmet lights). If this were the case, the player could always get out of places if needs be so long as the player wasn't an idiot and hadn't used all their power. If they were out of power, RIP mate. 

Alternatively, to get rid of that "RIP mate" situation, could simply give the backpack some power regen to a point, say, will fill a single bar automatically, but no more after that. Give it a cooldown or something so that it only starts refilling so many seconds after it's been depleted. Don't know if printing should be allowed on that low of power. Maybe only tethers, the O2 filters, the power cells, and maaaybe the small solar and wind vane thing (rarely use it so never remember the name haha) should be able to be printed with only 1 bar of power. All other printable items should require more power to encourage the player to produce their own instead of just leeching off the trickle. 

 

Anyway this is super long now: thoughts on that last bit? 

Somehow while editing that last comment, too much time passed for me to post the edited version. *sigh*

Very limited trickle charge (up to 1 bar) would also allow lights to turn back on if all power was used, plus letting the player use augments or whatever else they need to, albeit really slowly (since they'd need to wait for the cooldown and the actual charging before they used them again). Of the six scenarios I presented, that's my favorite.

 

TL;DR for my last two posts:

Trickle charge to 1 bar only; terrain tool uses no power but requires power in pack to function (like helmet lights); augs and printing uses power; printing certain basic items requires only 1 bar of power, most require more. 

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8 hours ago, SES_joe said:

Would love to see a crash report and details for this. 

can email to me joe@systemera.net

Don't you automatically get crash reports for the Steam version since patch 182? Have I been lying when I replied to this topic:

 

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Anybody else seeing a huge reduction in Frame Rate from this Patch? I am starting off about half the rate right from the beginning?

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8 hours ago, Marck said:

Don't you automatically get crash reports for the Steam version since patch 182? Have I been lying when I replied to this topic:

 

we get some info through unreal, but much easier to triage with the save file and dump in front of us. 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 14.8.2017 at 4:56 AM, GoldenOuroboros said:

I am hoping that you'll find a different avenue to show that you've run out of empty canisters rather than showing that you're just burning off excess soil, excuse my concern for the environmental welfare of the planets that the astroneers inhabit :P

Like, maybe, something of that sort?
Astroneer_idea_terrain_tool.thumb.png.e735860632ea502ddb4d9bca588cc1b5.png
(the design is only meant to visualise the idea)

 

On 14.8.2017 at 4:56 AM, GoldenOuroboros said:

It's definitely added a new element to it, I have to agree with what some have said about that it doesn't use power any more, I still think it should as well, it's a device that's doing work so it should be using something.

Since terrain filtering is established in Astroneer now, the concept could be taken a step further by giving the terrain tool the ability to filter power out of sediment, effectively supplying itself.
Changing this still allows the terrain tool to be used without power, but at a cost (Less/no sediment gain, for example). The point is that there should always be the possibility to use the terrain tool, for when you accidentally fall into a hole etc.

What do you think?

Edited by UtopicVision

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BTW the team is reading through this thread for feedback, and it is really great. This is awesome to see. Thanks all. :x

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7 minutes ago, SES_joe said:

BTW the team is reading through this thread for feedback, and it is really great. This is awesome to see. Thanks all. :x

Someone buy Aaron a drink, he did a great job.

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Suggestion: Remove Trucks and Rovers till solutions fix them.... and please do something about Storms just pushing you a quarter of the way around the planet.

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13 minutes ago, KeeblerOrc said:

Suggestion: Remove Trucks and Rovers till solutions fix them.... and please do something about Storms just pushing you a quarter of the way around the planet.

Have you read/heard of the Brandon Sanderson series The Stormlight Archive? Super good. Anyway, there are mega-storms (called highstorms) that fly around the planet constantly. Reminds me of this. (Seriously though, if you like good books, this dude writes great ones.) 

As for the actual suggestion, could they be replaced with a self-balancing motorbike? We have medium rover with two 2-slots, large with four, we need a small rover with one 2-slot. It totally won't be blown around the entire planet by one of these highstorms. 

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I've played 10 hours on Experimental 2 and have found some very disappointing features.... I have not researched the Large Rover yet (Truck).... So this is about the Medium Rover.... I like that they slowed it down to get past the terrain generating long after the vehicle has passed by.... What I hate.... (Let me Reiterate ....HATE) is that a loaded rover has so little power it cant crawl out of a tiny incline and when the Storms hit its like Paper in the wind.....    I have spent approx. 4 hours  in the Medium Rovers and found that a 2 Rover train is unusable and ridiculously frustrating to use.... When Driving the front vehicle just noses into the air and becomes a pain to recover.  Of that 4 hours I spent 3 hours attempting to recover the load or flip the vehicles.  I am sure there is some function that is set wrong.... I hope will be fixed soon. 

I personally feel this is the first patch that I wish I had not even loaded.... the saddest part is I just turned the First 1000 Hours in game on Steam and did not Rage Quit... but feel totally let down.

Giz.... I don't want to see new vehicles until the Rover and Trucks get fixed.

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21 minutes ago, KeeblerOrc said:

Giz.... I don't want to see new vehicles until the Rover and Trucks get fixed.

I was making a joke; I do actually agree with you wholeheartedly there haha

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1 hour ago, KeeblerOrc said:

Giz.... I don't want to see new vehicles until the Rover and Trucks get fixed.

I've had similar problems with a simple 2 Rover setup for hauling research or ore out from my cave network.  Sometimes I can make it up the ramp with 3 research, sometimes I run out of torque and get stuck halfway up.  

The Rover also flips/bounces/blows away very easily, it doesnt match the feel of gravity for it's visual size and implied mass.  

Maybe the new modular system will address many of these concerns I hope?  *fingers crossed*

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After 5 days of this experimental build, having terrain as "Ammo" is going to completely remove the fun factor and creativity of this game. Constantly having to fill these canisters then running back to where you need it is just plain counterproductive. You might as well go all out and have it so when the canisters full. That's it! you can't dig anymore until you empty it. Boy, this would really be a blast, wouldn't it?

As for the power consumption issue, if they're worried about players running out of power then maybe what is needed, is a lower power consumption rate when digging. But again if you using augment like Wide Mod then the power consumption should go up.

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I really like those changes - on paper.
Have to try this asap...

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Spend some more time playing around with EXP TEST 002 and this idea of Sediment and Sediment Processor kind of remind me of the old version of the fuel condenser. Where you're on Barren that has no atmosphere to speak of and you could literally suck the hydrazine out of nothing. Extracting resource out of any sediment is the same thing. Kind of cheesy way to do it.

I still think a better option would be to use existing deposits where you've already extracted most of the big chunks and could gather what ever sediment that is remaining around that deposit. This would especially be useful when it comes to very rare resources that are hard to come by.

Ammonium: There should also be another way to convert Ammonium into refined Hydrazine beside using the Hydrazine Refinery or the Fuel Condenser. Perhaps a new augment that would convert Ammonium into Hydrazine. Of course, this augment would be very wasteful and would also require power when processing Ammonium, maybe 8 Ammonium for one Hydrazine.

This is a concern I have because when exploring landing sites with a small shuttle in the past, I would end up empty pretty quick and having the ability to use the augment on Ammonium would be a lifesaver.

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I am also going to chime in to say that power limits worked well on a balanced game play.

Sediment as a resource also throws off this balance in 2 ways:

1. You have to collect a disproportionate amount of sediment to reuse it for adding terrain back (as reto mentions above).

2. I end up with huge holes in the ground that become rover obstacles.  I used to fill these in to make travel easier, but now that I use my terrain as a resource for the sediment tanks, I just have holes everywhere.  Shia LeBouf might show up any minute.

If this is the route that you want to move forward with, I would say, no longer use sediment as a filler from the tanks, and limit it instead by power again.  Also, it might be nice to pull other minerals out of the soil that are common for the planet you are on, since you really are just doing strip mining anyway.  You'd think future planet travelers would be better custodians of the places they go anyway (tsk tsk).

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