spinlock_1977

Open Question: Could you NOT trade Hydrazine?

93 posts in this topic

Two honest questions to those who DON'T want hydrazine trading back in the game:  

- If hydrazine trading was put back in, could you avoid using it?

- If hydrazine trading was put back in, are there other features you'd want in the game, in order to find that acceptable?

Thank you,

spinlock

 

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It isn't a question of whether you want it in the game or not; it's about the impact the trading has on the game as a whole.  Hydrazine trading can very easily dilute the need for exploring and branching out.  Why go to other planets when you can sit on the start planet like some like some turn of the century Robber Baron, with an unlimited number of magic devices that produce trade goods out of thin air?

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I agree that it's more about the impact on the entire game. Nerfing should create balance not a void.

By making hydrazine non-tradable you've effectively turned hydrazine, the fuel condenser and the trade platform into mostly worthless resources.

Since you can mine hydrazine, why bother with the fuel condenser? Especially since hydrazine is only used for spaceship trade.... which generally requires you to spend lots of time gathering resources before traveling between planets. So why have a machine that can create fuel that you could just as easily mine, while building your stockpile to travel with.

Back to the trade platform, with the trade rates, again, I might as well mine the resources unless I'm in a pinch or a giant rush.

Additionally, why couldn't hydrazine be used to fuel some other option? I now have a giant stockpile that, at this rate, I will probably never end up using all of. Side note: I spent most of my time mining and really only used the hydro farm to make a handful of batteries.

Maybe I'm missing something, as I'm only a month or two into the game and I've yet to begin space travel (wanted to be stocked, and had to start over from scratch as my first toon glitched out), but I definitely think things need to be rebalanced for this to be an effective change.

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11 minutes ago, krisolmon said:

I agree that it's more about the impact on the entire game. Nerfing should create balance not a void.

By making hydrazine non-tradable you've effectively turned hydrazine, the fuel condenser and the trade platform into mostly worthless resources.

See, I stopped reading there.  Hydrazine, and the fuel condenser still have their intended purpose:  to be fuel and to produce fuel for the shuttle and space ship.  The trade platform is there to assist in a pinch.  If the developers intended every resource to be available in mass quantities on the start planet, why even bother with the hoop jumping of needing a plethora of fuel condensers?  Just drop every resource right next to the start habitat.

Clearly from the developers actions what they were being used for is not what they were intended to be used for.  And the fact that many people exploited the fuel/trade platform relationship does not make the intended use any less valuable nor does it nullify it.

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I agree with the fact that Hydrazine has to be removed as a trade item.  To keep it, and ostensibly the Fuel Condenser from being obsolete, how about adding at the very last item on a research chain the ability to use Hydrazine as a power generator for your base?  That way you can work hard to research to get to that point where you can use Hydrazine to power your base.

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We've had this conversation already, folks.  Several times, in fact.  Every point has been made, and I'm sure the devs are already choosing the direction they plan to go with it.

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I'm not saying it should go back to the way it was or that we should be able to trade for anything "instantly." Hydro farms were way OP. But it does feel unbalanced to me now. Again, why bother with a fuel condenser if I can mine hydro.

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22 minutes ago, krisolmon said:

I'm not saying it should go back to the way it was or that we should be able to trade for anything "instantly." Hydro farms were way OP. But it does feel unbalanced to me now. Again, why bother with a fuel condenser if I can mine hydro.

What happens if you land on a planet and can find no readily available hydrazine?  It is an uncommon resource on three planets.  Who would want to be forced to find it should they land on a planet where it is only available on the other side of the planet?  Its called Astroneer and not Robinson Crusoe.  No condenser could be game over in some cases, should you harvest all the hydrazine and can't get "home".

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I understand spinlock_1977's question such that s/he is asking why does the hydrazine trading need to be removed instead of leaving it in and those players not liking its usage simply do not utilize it in their game.

Essentially, the hydrazine trading can be seen as a game mode option, i.e. a way to customize your game. So why does it need to be removed instead of being left in the game for optional use? I think this is a very legitimate question and I am interested in the answers as well.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Marck said:

I understand spinlock_1977's question such that s/he is asking why does the hydrazine trading need to be removed instead of leaving it in and those players not liking its usage simply do not utilize it in their game.

Essentially, the hydrazine trading can be seen as a game mode option, i.e. a way to customize your game. So why does it need to be removed instead of being left in the game for optional use? I think this is a very legitimate question and I am interested in the answers as well.

When optional use (mass farming Hydrazine for trading) trumps intended mechanics (exploring for resources) the "optional use" becomes the defacto way to do things.  If you remove the need to explore, you are really removing a core component of the game.

Edited by MMZ>Torak

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3 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

When optional use (mass farming Hydrazine) for trading trumps intended mechanics (exploring for resources) the "optional use" becomes the defacto way to do things.  If you remove the need to explore, you are really removing a core component of the game.

If you think that exploring for resources is preferable to farming hydrazine, then why don't you just ignore the hydrazine trading and do the exploration part? Why do you care what others do in the game? If others like the farming, then why prevent them from doing just that?

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Just now, Marck said:

If you think that exploring for resources is preferable to farming hydrazine, then why don't you just ignore the hydrazine trading and do the exploration part? Why do you care what others do in the game? If others like the farming, then why prevent them from doing just that?

You sir are missing the point.  You are justifying what you want to do rather than looking at the game development as a whole.  When one method is patently and demonstrably simpler and easier than the intended core mechanic to the point were it can easily and totally replace a core mechanic and trivialize a main component of the game, as a developer, action must be taken.

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34 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

You sir are missing the point.  You are justifying what you want to do rather than looking at the game development as a whole.  When one method is patently and demonstrably simpler and easier than the intended core mechanic to the point were it can easily and totally replace a core mechanic and trivialize a main component of the game, as a developer, action must be taken.

You are implying that only one way of playing Astroneer must be enforced. It should not be possible for any player to play the game in any other way.

In my opinion, it should not matter whether the play style of one player "trivializes" the game. If a player wants to do it that way, then all the power to her/him.

I ask again: Why do you care about somebody else playing the game in a way other than what you denote as the "intended core mechanic"? How does it prevent you from using and enjoying the alleged "intended core mechanic"?

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I also made a big post about this but it seemed to get lost in the 153-154-155 hype... or maybe it was "wall of text" ignored lol...

Its simple really... Hydrazine should not be tradeable in the endgame. It takes away the focus on exploring and survival, which is a big part of this game. 100% agree.

But...

Since the game is in such an early stage, would it be better to have the freedom of trading it so we can really "push" the limits of the game and do crazy things that may expose other bugs/exploits without the grind? That is the real question !!

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1 minute ago, The_Gump said:

I also made a big post about this but it seemed to get lost in the 153-154-155 hype... or maybe it was "wall of text" ignored lol...

Its simple really... Hydrazine should not be tradeable in the endgame. It takes away the focus on exploring and survival, which is a big part of this game. 100% agree.

But...

Since the game is in such an early stage, would it be better to have the freedom of trading it so we can really "push" the limits of the game and do crazy things that may expose other bugs/exploits without the grind? That is the real question !!

This is a smarter way of looking at the current problem.

 

Marck:

Why even bother farming hydrazine?  Lets lobby for huge pile of all resources readily available for use to produce all tech and buildings without searching for anything?  Surely that is a game with some longevity and goals and objectives?  Remove the smelter, why do i have to convert to resources to a usable state?  Remove compound and let me dig up a rover?  Why do I have to convert that compound into something useful?

 

Heck, remove all research.  When you land on the start planet, everything should be just there.  

 

Please also remove the need for Power.  I don't like having to find resources, build a printer, print a solar collector and battery.  Wouldn't that be easier?  Instant gratification FTW!

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18 minutes ago, The_Gump said:

Its simple really... Hydrazine should not be tradeable in the endgame. It takes away the focus on exploring and survival, which is a big part of this game. 100% agree.

Why does hydrazine trading take away the focus on exploring? Some people play Astroneer already without using some of the available modules and items, like e.g. the fuel condenser and/or the trading platform. Why can't you also simply ignore hydrazine trading and focus on exploring, if you like that better?

11 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

[...]

Heck, remove all research.  When you land on the start planet, everything should be just there.  

Please also remove the need for Power.  I don't like having to find resources, build a printer, print a solar collector and battery.  Wouldn't that be easier?  Instant gratification FTW!

If people enjoy such a gameplay, then why not? People may just want to get creative with the terrain tool and the augments, so why not allowing that? There are actually several requests for a "creative mode".

As long as all this does not remove the option for your preferred playstyle, why do you care about how the game is played by others?

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Just now, Marck said:

Why does hydrazine trading take away the focus on exploring? Some people play Astroneer already without using some of the available modules and items, like e.g. the fuel condenser and/or the trading platform. Why can't you also simply ignore hydrazine trading and focus on exploring, if you like that better?

If people enjoy such a gameplay, then why not? People may just want to get creative with the terrain tool and the augments, so why not allowing that? There are actually several requests for a "creative mode".

As long as all this does not remove the option for your preferred playstyle, why do you care about how the game is played by others?

Because this is a game in development?

When you have a kid, why not just give him beer and doritos?  After all, that's all he'll be eating in College anyway?

Game mechanics need to be developed, and a great pile of un-earned win does not help to shape anything.

If the devs want to put in a "creative mode" once the core game has been properly developed thats perfectly fine.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

Because this is a game in development?

When you have a kid, why not just give him beer and doritos?  After all, that's all he'll be eating in College anyway?

Game mechanics need to be developed, and a great pile of un-earned win does not help to shape anything.

If the devs want to put in a "creative mode" once the core game has been properly developed thats perfectly fine.

Are you serious with this? Other players are like kids that need to be prevented from deviating from the "core gameplay"?

I don't see why a "core gameplay" can't be developed while different playstyles are available alongside. On the contrary, all available playstyles should be equally well developed and tested. That is, if Astroneer wants to be a sandbox game, as I understood the developer's intention. If System Era actually wants to offer only one single core gameplay, then you are right, of course.

Edited by Marck

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16 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

Because this is a game in development?

When you have a kid, why not just give him beer and doritos?  After all, that's all he'll be eating in College anyway?

Game mechanics need to be developed, and a great pile of un-earned win does not help to shape anything.

If the devs want to put in a "creative mode" once the core game has been properly developed thats perfectly fine.

I have a great deal of curiosity as to how you managed to convince yourself that has anything to do with anything.

 

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Just now, Marck said:

Are you serious with this? Other players are like kids that need to be prevented from deviating from the "core gameplay"?

I don't see why a "core gameplay" can't be developed while different playstyles are available alongside. On the contrary, all available playstyles should be equally well developed and tested. That is, if Astroneer wants to be a sandbox game, as I understood the developer's intention. If System Era actually wants to focus on one single core gameplay, then you are right, of course.

Clearly you are missing the comparison.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you misread the metaphor.  The "kid" is not the players, but the game.  "Beer and Doritos" are poor game choices in a development cycle (rather than working on core mechanics, you make the game as appealing as possible; not by adding any substance of worth and focus on giving people things to play with and not things to test.  This is a pre-alpha.  Not a demo; not a beta.  There needs to be some development of systems.  Because right now the whole of the game can be exhausted in a couple of hours.  Giving more free resources would not be helping development IMHO.

I view the claim for the return of Hydrazine trading akin to asking for more blank pages in the Spaceman coloring book.  It's a spaceman coloring book, it needs pictures of spacemen to color in; not blank pages.

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15 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

Clearly you are missing the comparison.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you misread the metaphor.  The "kid" is not the players, but the game.  "Beer and Doritos" are poor game choices in a development cycle (rather than working on core mechanics, you make the game as appealing as possible; not by adding any substance of worth and focus on giving people things to play with and not things to test.  This is a pre-alpha.  Not a demo; not a beta.  There needs to be some development of systems.  Because right now the whole of the game can be exhausted in a couple of hours.  Giving more free resources would not be helping development IMHO

Apparently, you regard anything other than what you see as "core gameplay" as not worth having. That's where we differ. My stance is, if Astroneer heads to be a sandbox game, then playstyles other than the "core gameplay" are perfectly fine and as important to the game as that alleged "core gameplay". Therefore, all these playstyles equally need to be developed and tested. You seem to assume that Astroneer is not a sandbox game and will offer only one single "core gameplay". Then development should focus on that only, of course.

I don't claim to know what System Era is actually heading for, but all the information that I have seen, including the introductory message shown during every start of the game, appears to indicate that SES is at least welcoming feedback from players on what the actual gameplay should be. I vote for having several different playstyles available in the form of a sandbox.

16 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

I view the claim for the return of Hydrazine trading akin to asking for more blank pages in the Spaceman coloring book.  It's a spaceman coloring book, it needs pictures of spacemen to color in; not blank pages.

I am sorry, but I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say with this.

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Just a quick comment...as many have mentioned, the game is in development. Some (who want the hydrazine returned and see no issue with "playing the game as they wish") are missing one important point: how can the SE continue to make changes to gameplay, receive proper and accurate feedback, etc, if "some" people are essentially ignoring parts of the gameplay changes and "doing it their own way"? While it's just my opinion here, that makes no sense to be honest. Once the game is complete I suspect there will be mods and workarounds particularly on PC, and there may indeed be a "creative mode" as well. But this isn't the point in game development IMHO where such things are appropriate and it's definitely true people were just sitting around and exploiting the situation, building hydrazine farms, and that's something that couldn't continue overall. While I'm not against people being creative, that's far from the only reason players were using FCs and hydrazine farming. It's a fact about gaming some would rather ignore-where's there's a weakness in game design, such as a potential exploit or glitch of some kind, inevitably certain individuals will seek them out and use/abuse them. This is something the Devs had no choice but to remedy before the game progressed into later stages of development. Again, not saying it won't return in a different form, such as a creative mode or similar format, but as it existed it was certainly diluted important gameplay mechanics such as exploration and research (even more so as the Devs are working on the new research system, which needs tweaks and modifications, something difficult to do if people turn to a method to simply bypass some of these restrictions now in place, in fact it could be argued the temptation would be even higher now).

As to whether the Fuel Condenser is now a useless machine, I've contemplated this myself. However, I have faith in the Devs on this. We don't know exactly what the long term plans are for this machine, or for hydrazine itself. It's possible hydrazine could be used for other purposes, ones that have yet to be revealed. As someone mentioned, it may not always be feasible to harvest hydrazine on other planets, so the FC may still be a valuable building to provide a source of return fuel for your travels. Basically, all it means is you likely only need one of them, not 4+ like some built previously, and depending on how close your Terran base is to deposits, you may not need to bother with one there at all. It's likely to still be worth it in terms of convenience, but no longer will it be necessary to build until a space vehicle blueprint is unlocked. It would be nice if the shuttle was returned to the starting lineup but that's not something I believe is worth arguing about, and I don't know that I would consider the shuttle to be a vital necessity at the start of the game. I would like to see some hierarchy in research unlocks as many others would. In particular, I'm getting a bit tired of unlocking SS-3 seat, when I don't have anything else unlocked for vehicles :P That's all I'll say for now as I've probably written more than most care to read. But I agree with the hydrazine trade block, and I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Down the line, I think a creative mode is reasonable, but at the current stage of development, I can understand why the Dev team needs to focus on advancing other parts of the game and polishing those as well so things work better and players feel more satisfied with their accomplishments. It's important to remember this is a game we provide feedback on to help shape the game, but that doesn't mean the Devs "owe us" by making the game the way we want it to be. They certainly aren't obligated to let us "play the way we want, by our own rules" and I don't know any game that has ever had such a system such as this outside of the use of mods. I could be wrong, but once again, it doesn't make sense at this stage. Thanks :) 

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1 minute ago, Marck said:

Apparently, you regard anything other than what you see as "core gameplay" as not worth having. That's where we differ. My stance is, if Astroneer heads to be a sandbox game, then playstyles other than the "core gameplay" are perfectly fine and as important to the game as that alleged "core gameplay". Therefore, all these playstyles equally need to be developed and tested. You seem to assume that Astroneer is not a sandbox game and will offer only one single "core gameplay". Then development should focus on that only, of course.

I don't claim to know what System Era is actually heading for, but all the information that I have seen, including the introductory message shown during every start of the game, appears to indicate that SES is at least welcoming feedback from players on what the actual gameplay should be. I vote for having several different playstyles available in the form of a sandbox.

I am sorry, but I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say with this.

Not worth having AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAMES DEVELOPMENT.  There is no "game" if it just a pile of resources; much like a coloring book with blank pages in not a coloring book.

I also vote for a sandbox mode with everything you are asking for, just not "NOW!"  I much prefer they flesh out the game mechanics first.  Put some meaningful systems in place, give us things to do that are not spun out of whole cloth by the player.  Sandbox mode is easy, and if that is all you want out of this game there is no need to even be part of this conversation.  The game is pretty much only sandbox now.  It needs more, and to get there it means making changes to the game to see how it plays out.  How accurate of a picture of the game do you get when everything is freely available almost from the start?

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, MMZ>Torak said:

Not worth having AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAMES DEVELOPMENT.  There is no "game" if it just a pile of resources; much like a coloring book with blank pages in not a coloring book.

I also vote for a sandbox mode with everything you are asking for, just not "NOW!"  I much prefer they flesh out the game mechanics first.  Put some meaningful systems in place, give us things to do that are not spun out of whole cloth by the player.  Sandbox mode is easy, and if that is all you want out of this game there is no need to even be part of this conversation.  The game is pretty much only sandbox now.  It needs more, and to get there it means making changes to the game to see how it plays out.  How accurate of a picture of the game do you get when everything is freely available almost from the start?

Okay, I now see where you are coming from. But I doubt that forcing everybody in early access to do the core gameplay and nothing but the core gameplay will actually help with development. Players who prefer other playstyles most likely simply won't play the game then, or if they do, only give negative feedback about being unable to enjoy the game. After all, it is all volunteering in early access, and you can't really force anyone, only encourage.

And as The_Gump already mentioned earlier in this thread, having an "easy mode" can actually help with testing because it allows access to parts of the game that could only be reached with much greater difficulty within the "core gameplay".

As a side node, System Era themselves appears to be ambivalent about focusing on "core gameplay": Why would they introduce augments, if those surely will find players who focus on playing with them instead of doing "core gameplay"?

Edited by Marck

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10 minutes ago, Marck said:

Okay, I now see where you are coming from. But I doubt that forcing everybody in early access to do the core gameplay and nothing but the core gameplay will actually help with development. Players who prefer other playstyles most likely simply won't play the game then, or if they do, only give negative feedback about being unable to enjoy the game. After all, it is all volunteering in early access, and you can't really force anyone, only encourage.

And as The_Gump already mentioned earlier in this thread, having an "easy mode" can actually help with testing because it allows access to parts of the game that could only be reached with much greater difficulty within the "core gameplay".

As a side node, System Era themselves appears to be ambivalent about focusing on "core gameplay": Why would they introduce augments, if those surely will find players who focus on playing with them instead of doing "core gameplay"?

Multiple game modes are often enough of a headache to manage, let alone manage in a pre-alpha stage.  Focus is what is needed.  I can see the augments being added as a means to help flesh out the research system more (need more things to research).  I cannot see any benefit, at this stage, to enhancing the free form mode of the game.  Especially in the light of there being no alternative to the free form style.  To test systems and their impact on the game everyone needs to be playing by the same rules or the data is not as helpful.  If two independent players are working on getting off the starting planet and Person A is using the Hydrazine trading to get everything they need and Person B "playing as intended" they will have drastically different experiences.  Even to go as far as Person A ranting about how easy it is and Person B pulling their hair out trying to find resources you might not ever know why their experiences differ.

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