Nuinethir

Adjust Trade Platform Values to Accommodate Hydrazine Trading

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I am completely surprised that the ratios for trading weren't just changed, instead of removing Hydrazine from the Trade Platform entirely. I have accumulated quite a bit of Hydrazine just from mining and opening research chests, with nothing to do with it except plop it in a waste dump.

The costs should be changed like this to make the Fuel Condenser unproductive for trade (yet available if you are in a pinch and have nothing but time to spare)...

  • Hydrazine (cost 2, sell 1)
  • Compound, Resin, Organic (cost 8, sell 4)
  • Laterite, Malachite (cost 16, sell 8)
  • Aluminum, Copper (cost 32, sell 16)
  • Coal, Lithium, Titanium (cost 64, sell 32)

This is basically a 4x multiplier for people that choose to pump out Hydrazine to trade for resources. This means you have to sit around a lot longer if you just want to run a Hydrazine refinery all day.

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Hydrazine should be at least the same as Resin, Compound and Organic.   Or worse.. only tradeable for those.

ie So you need teirs of resources, you can use one teir to trade for the next teir above and so on.  With 50 fuel condensers.. you get alot of fuel.. which can be traded for alot of resources.. and you never need to leave your base.  The main point of this patch is to push you out of that safe zone..

I also don't like the complete removal of hydrazine, I know why it's been done.  I've been expecting this since Jan.

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12 hours ago, Nuinethir said:
  • Hydrazine (cost 2, sell 1)
  • Compound, Resin, Organic (cost 8, sell 4)
  • Laterite, Malachite (cost 16, sell 8)
  • Aluminum, Copper (cost 32, sell 16)
  • Coal, Lithium, Titanium (cost 64, sell 32)

 

I think this is ok system that it's not good enough to exploit but still a little bit efficient. So overall might be worth investing in.

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I actually think Hydrazine should be worth more than Compound, Resin and Organic, and making it untradeable is a quick-fix because there's no tech tree, and very few research items.   Once we have a tree, and if the Hydrazine Generator were a mid- or high-level item, then farming for Hydrazine would be something you could do later in the game, and transition from hunting some resources, to producing them yourself.  Maybe make the Hydrazine generator require a lot more energy, so if someone does want to farm them, they also need a solar/wind farm (or higher-level generator of some sort) to produce them at a reasonable rate.

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I know it makes it more complicated for them to program it, but the value should be based on the actions of the user.  If you're only trading a little and not very often, then its value can stay high.  But if you starting pumping it out, effectively flooding the market, then logic says the value will drop.  It's basic supply and demand.

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I feel like the issue here is that there are two features people want that currently are mixed up as just hydrazine. I think the point of the condenser is to make travel back and forth within the solar system accessible. Although I personally would like to see that eventually a bit harder (why is it easier to fly to and from another planet 3x than it is to drive my truck 1/4 the way around Terran?). However, I understand it is designed the way it is to promoted exploration. Fine. The second issue is that people want a "renewable" resource that they can generate and then trade for. I am certain that this can be possible as the game advances, possibly within automation. The key here is to get the value right so it is worthwhile but not hugely valuable or game-breaking. This is why the trade hammer came down on Hydrazine.

The key is that the end result needs to makes sense and be playable. Given that the Astrononeers posses a condenser tech that converts Nitrogen atmosphere to Hydrazine Rocket Fuel (??) why would there be any trade market for that fuel? We just need to a resource that can be generated but that is costly to generate (lots of power, digs up land perhaps) but which is in abundance on the planets being explored and thus has trade value.

Ideas include: Silicon Metal (most average rocks are rich in silica), Water on Tundra, Lead on radiated (produced by many radioactive decay chains). These sorts of things can be produced "from the ground" but require a significant infrastructure and energy investment to produce. So we then have the "near-infinite" resource we can set up plants to produce, and trade them at a low but non-zero value (based on supply?). Yet hydrazine remains easy to produce, no trade value and we can fly around the solar system at whim. Bam Everybody happy...?

**As a nerdy side note the condenser should definitely not work on Barren, probably not Radiated or Arid either (Little to No Nitrogen atmosphere)**

Edited by Beren99

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What about leave it as it it right now (not being able to sell hydrazine to the 'unknown alien man') and wait for the extension as mentioned in the roadmap where players should be able to trade with other players? If there is a need on the market (I would be one of the guys buying hydrazine in return for some metals or lithium) as I do not like to sit in my base and press the buttons of the fuel condenser. If there is no need on the market you simply cant sell hydrazine. That would indicate that hydrazine should not be traded as no one needs it (except the 'unknown alien man' which whom we are trading right now).

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16 minutes ago, Indomitus1973 said:

I know it makes it more complicated for them to program it, but the value should be based on the actions of the user.  If you're only trading a little and not very often, then its value can stay high.  But if you starting pumping it out, effectively flooding the market, then logic says the value will drop.  It's basic supply and demand.

Actually, this would be a good implementation. People who need to offload surplus can get something in return; those looking to make Hydrazine refinement their main priority will see a much reduced return on investment.

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5 minutes ago, Nuinethir said:

Actually, this would be a good implementation. People who need to offload surplus can get something in return; those looking to make Hydrazine refinement their main priority will see a much reduced return on investment.

If you make it dependent on other players' trading, then it would tend to be consistently less valuable over time.  So new games would be harder (in that regard) than previous ones.  Astroneer isn't an MMORPG (to me, it's about surviving, exploring and expanding in your own little pocket of space)... so having some kind of galactic market economy doesn't make much sense to me.

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24 minutes ago, Abram Jablonski said:

 

If you make it dependent on other players' trading, then it would tend to be consistently less valuable over time.  So new games would be harder (in that regard) than previous ones.  Astroneer isn't an MMORPG (to me, it's about surviving, exploring and expanding in your own little pocket of space)... so having some kind of galactic market economy doesn't make much sense to me.

No, not on other players' actions.  Just on the actions in that specific game.  When you start a new one, it would be full value.  But if you started trading it heavily, the value- just for that game- would drop.  If you started over after that, so would the value of hydrazine.

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My bad - I misread/ misunderstood, and thought Nuinethir was also referring to trade between players.  It was intended in response to:

1 hour ago, reto said:

What about leave it as it it right now (not being able to sell hydrazine to the 'unknown alien man') and wait for the extension as mentioned in the roadmap where players should be able to trade with other players? If there is a need on the market (I would be one of the guys buying hydrazine in return for some metals or lithium) as I do not like to sit in my base and press the buttons of the fuel condenser. If there is no need on the market you simply cant sell hydrazine. That would indicate that hydrazine should not be traded as no one needs it (except the 'unknown alien man' which whom we are trading right now).

 

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Jep, that was my idea. But maybe not the best idea. It would make hydrazine worthless after a while, which---in my case---is ok *g*. But you might be right and the idea of getting less valuable if a player tries to sell loads of hydracine within a (short) time period is more transparent and easier to implement as well.

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9 minutes ago, reto said:

Jep, that was my idea. But maybe not the best idea. It would make hydrazine worthless after a while, which---in my case---is ok *g*. But you might be right and the idea of getting less valuable if a player tries to sell loads of hydracine within a (short) time period is more transparent and easier to implement as well.

Definitely easier to implement, especially if you don't track sales over time: then it's just a scaling algorithm based on total sales, with a max and min value (so it would never be completely worthless).  And maybe never have it go below 1/4 of its starting value.

My preference would be to make Hydrazine generation require a lot more energy, so "Hydrazine Farming" would be possible, but you'd need big solar/wind farms to make it possible

 

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1 hour ago, Abram Jablonski said:

My preference would be to make Hydrazine generation require a lot more energy, so "Hydrazine Farming" would be possible, but you'd need big solar/wind farms to make it possible

It already takes 16 energy units, where other platforms only use 8. I would rather just raise the values of other items to make Hydrazine sell at a set value, just make it super grindy.

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49 minutes ago, Nuinethir said:

It already takes 16 energy units, where other platforms only use 8. I would rather just raise the values of other items to make Hydrazine sell at a set value, just make it super grindy.

I just don't like the idea of lawn clippings being worth more than jet fuel.  It seems... off.  Plus, it devalues any natural Hydrazine that's gathered.

At the same time, though, I don't see anything wrong with someone farming it (or some other unlimited resource) - if that's how they want to play, and as long as it's not possible in the early stages of a game.

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Here's an alternative to what has already been suggested: bring back Hydrazine trading as it was before the latest patch, but have a 'cool down' period that only applies to Hydrazine trading. So, once you trade some Hydrazine (be it one canister or eight) at ANY Trade Platform,  then an in-game timer starts counting down. Until that counter reaches zero, no player in the game can trade Hydrazine at any of the Trade Platforms.

You would still be able to trade other resources during this time, at that Trade Platform or others, like normal. A bit of in-game lore could be that the Hydrazine you are trading is going to the Spacestation you initially lunch from, and it's being used up slowly, so they don't want any more until their current stockpile is gone.

As for the cool down period, it could be about nine minutes (just under a full day on Terran). This way, players can get into the habit of doing their 'Hydrazine Trade Of The Day' at the start or end of the day, when the sun comes up or goes down.

With this method, you can still have an 'infinite' source of resources, but it's not as efficient to rely on it completely. It would mean players would have to be more strategic in what they trade their Hydrazine for. "What do I need the most right now? What can I trade less valuable resources for?"

I agree that the pre-patch setup made things too easy once you got those two modules, but I also agree with those who are worried that now we have an in-built limit to how much resources we now have per game. The game is still pre-alpha, so I would like the Devs to at least experiment with these different suggestions (not just my own) during each patch, in order to see how each possible solution is received by the players.

Edited by Ghostwolf93
Spelling correction.

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1 hour ago, Ghostwolf93 said:

Until that counter reaches zero, no player in the game can trade Hydrazine at any of the Trade Platforms.

Sounds good to me.

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I fully understand nerfing the hydrazine trading. What bugs me is not being able to use hydrazine for fuel in any ground vehicles. It seems like it's a good source of energy. At least, why not a hydrazine generator, as has been suggested several times? 

I am very happy to see that the dev team has been very responsive to the player base--that shows commitment and dedication to me.

I thank them for that.

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