Chapmanzee

Either fuel shouldn't be tradeable or the Fuel Condenser should be taken out of the game.

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Just now, Wolff Laarcen said:

Well if you can suspend disbelief for game mechanics like the terrain deforming tool and the research machine, why can't you suspend disbelief for Hydrazine being non-tradable?

It makes sense to me that it uses electricity.

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14 minutes ago, Wolff Laarcen said:

Well if you can suspend disbelief for game mechanics like the terrain deforming tool and the research machine, why can't you suspend disbelief for Hydrazine being non-tradable?

Because Its not just that hydrazine is a cheap way to trade. A game with a purpose of exploring should place challenges on exploring and the fuel condenser only requiring power to pump out fuel breaks the challenge of exploring. And trying to find hydrazine is just another encouragement for you to explore and find more resource nodes. The satisfaction of being able to go to other planets greatly increases in this case

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I have a solution to this problem. make hydrazine not tradeable, but instead make the trading rocket require hydrazine to make trips. and when you put hydrazineonto the rocket, it would put it onto a fueling socket and use it.

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I don't have anything new to add yet, but as this discussion goes on I would like to reiterate my previous input for anyone who skips reading the first page.

12 hours ago, CherubimCW said:

I agree that fuel should either be limited as Psy said, by processing crystals, OR not tradeable... eventually.  Right now at this stage of development reaching the point that you can create and trade hydrazine basically constitutes endgame for base building.  There's just not that much diversity to explore in that area yet.  The only thing after that is planetary exploration, which we can do with the infinite resources available by hydrazine trading.

 

Edited by CherubimCW

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2 hours ago, Chapmanzee said:

Okay this dude is just trolling at this point, ignore him.

No, that's literally the solution to your problem. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't attempt to dictate the way other people play the game.

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Maybe the fuel condenser should require more than just power. It's just too easy. I know the goal is a survival game that reduces the grind, but the condenser with a trading post allows you to advance way too quickly and easily. Exploration should be a huge focus of the game, and when you can get everything without leaving home, exploration becomes less meaningful.

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1 hour ago, Slywyn said:

No, that's literally the solution to your problem. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't attempt to dictate the way other people play the game.

That's literally what you're doing! The way I and many other people play games that focus on exploration requires that the game have a point to exploration. Exploration without a reason is boring as hell in 99% of games, including this one in it's current state.

Think about a game like GTA, it rewards exploration. It doesn't just give you an island to walk around on and see the pretty sights, it's dotted with hard to get to areas which have special weapons or vehicles in them. There's a risk/reward thing going on when you break into the military base, the risk of dying for the grand reward of a jet fighter or a tank. It's a challenge, if you could just spawn jets at your house it wouldn't be as fun, and if you can just spawn fuel at your base it completely ruins the challenge of:

A. Finding fuel in the first place (though I understand what you said about some planets not having fuel on them)

B. Finding every other resource in the game.

A simple fix like making Fuel hard to trade (or one of the many other fine suggestions in this thread) would make it a challenge again. If you don't want this game to be a challenge, then what do you want from it? And don't say "don't use it", it's not my job to make the game a challenge, it's the games job to challenge us. 

Edited by Chapmanzee

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2 hours ago, OzZ said:

A game with a purpose of exploring should place challenges on exploring and the fuel condenser only requiring power to pump out fuel breaks the challenge of exploring. And trying to find hydrazine is just another encouragement for you to explore and find more resource nodes.

Ok, I see where you're coming from:  You want interplanetary exploration to be a reward for exploring and finding resources.  I don't have a problem with that and I'm sure many others agree with you.  To be honest though, I don't have a problem with the current system either.  I'm sure some middle ground exists, I just don't know what it is.

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14 hours ago, Slywyn said:

Then don't use it. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one.

You hurt nothing by not using a system you don't like.

The fuel condenser + trading post is the only way to get certain resources on some planets.

I agree by far the planet I spawned on i'm pretty sure had NO iron a built a tunnel right next to my base leading to a cave and there we're None 

So if this glitch wasn't a thing I wouldn't have anything past smelter and research

my suggestion to fix this (because you need fuel condenser for rockets) is to not nerf trading either just make SUPER vualuble resouces unable to get from trading (titanium, lithium and by FAR coal

Edited by SilentWave

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1 minute ago, SilentWave said:

I agree by far the planet I spawned on i'm pretty sure had NO iron a built a tunnel right next to my base leading to a cave and there we're None 

So if this glitch wasn't a thing I wouldn't have anything past smelter and research

Report that issue here - http://forum.systemera.net/forum/2-astroneer-bugs-crashes/ and you won't need the exploit.

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1 hour ago, Chapmanzee said:

That's literally what you're doing! The way I and many other people play games that focus on exploration requires that the game have a point to exploration. Exploration without a reason is boring as hell in 99% of games, including this one in it's current state.

Think about a game like GTA, it rewards exploration. It doesn't just give you an island to walk around on and see the pretty sights, it's dotted with hard to get to areas which have special weapons or vehicles in them. There's a risk/reward thing going on when you break into the military base, the risk of dying for the grand reward of a jet fighter or a tank. It's a challenge, if you could just spawn jets at your house it wouldn't be as fun, and if you can just spawn fuel at your base it completely ruins the challenge of:

A. Finding fuel in the first place (though I understand what you said about some planets not having fuel on them)

B. Finding every other resource in the game.

A simple fix like making Fuel hard to trade (or one of the many other fine suggestions in this thread) would make it a challenge again. If you don't want this game to be a challenge, then what do you want from it? And don't say "don't use it", it's not my job to make the game a challenge, it's the games job to challenge us. 

 

Uh... no?

If you don't want to use the trade beacon, you have the choice not to use it. You have a CHOICE to not use it.

If people crying "overpowered"(Which is hilarious considering the game is cooperative, not competitive, and exploration is the goal, not resource gathering) get the trade post/fuel condenser changed, you will have then dictated that. There won't be a choice involved, we will be deprived of the method of acquiring resources(Like compound and Resin) on planets that don't have them because you complained.

You are the one attempting to dictate how others play. We are not.

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It don't make much sense to me turning electric in to liquid lol

I see where people come from saying you cannot find fuel on planets etc not had this happen to me yet but sure it will at some point.

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19 hours ago, Chapmanzee said:

It just breaks the game and makes exploration pointless.

hate people like you, who jsut make this games a chore. You really want to grind for hours? Do it! but dont force other poeple to play this game the way you want them to. What is wrong with this mechanic? With this mechanic you can build a base on every planet by just trading. Waht is wrong ith that? it would actually help you to explore, becasue it wont stop you and force you to grind every ressource that you need. And it will actually help you to build a base which needs ressources, which you cant get on certain planets.

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5 hours ago, SilentWave said:

I agree by far the planet I spawned on i'm pretty sure had NO iron a built a tunnel right next to my base leading to a cave and there we're None 

So if this glitch wasn't a thing I wouldn't have anything past smelter and research

my suggestion to fix this (because you need fuel condenser for rockets) is to not nerf trading either just make SUPER vualuble resouces unable to get from trading (titanium, lithium and by FAR coal

That's possibly because iron isn't in the game yet afaik but if you actually look you will find the other resources except maybe coal since i believe its only found on other planets than the starting one (unless on the starting one its just really rare or really deep)

Also if you think that titanium and lithium are rare then you really havent 'explored' much (which is what people keep repeating they only want to do) since you can get more titanium and lithium than you can even store xD Also coal is only useful for generating Power which by the time you find any coal and make a generator for it, power is no longer an issue. So nerfing trade by removing titanium, lithium and coal would not fix anything at all. It's the fact that people are making a rarer resource out of nothing but power and a bit of time (lessened by just doubling power production/storage and double the amount of condensers) and then trading it for common resources such as resin to build base and metal to build more buildings like printer and more condenser :D 

1 hour ago, pierre1096 said:

hate people like you, who jsut make this games a chore. You really want to grind for hours? Do it! but dont force other poeple to play this game the way you want them to. What is wrong with this mechanic? With this mechanic you can build a base on every planet by just trading. Waht is wrong ith that? it would actually help you to explore, becasue it wont stop you and force you to grind every ressource that you need. And it will actually help you to build a base which needs ressources, which you cant get on certain planets.

First of all please don't spread hate, people can have differing opinions without needing to hate each other. Getting a bit of resources is not a chore and doesn't take hours of grinding in fact you can start getting multiple tanks of Hydrazine before you even build your first building, something that happened on my first world when I didn't know what all the resources were used for I found hydrazine and used up all my power gathering it only to find that i couldnt even use it for quite a bit of time :D 

It's not like resources are lacking in the world or that the collection of resources is tedious, you point a gun at them and click and they go in your backpack i mean what's grindy about that?

If you want to get resources from nothing, just make a suggestion for Creative mode and let people alone who actually want a balanced game.

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6 hours ago, Slywyn said:

Uh... no?

If you don't want to use the trade beacon, you have the choice not to use it. You have a CHOICE to not use it.

If people crying "overpowered"(Which is hilarious considering the game is cooperative, not competitive, and exploration is the goal, not resource gathering) get the trade post/fuel condenser changed, you will have then dictated that. There won't be a choice involved, we will be deprived of the method of acquiring resources(Like compound and Resin) on planets that don't have them because you complained.

You are the one attempting to dictate how others play. We are not.

Seriously dude, did you even read what I posted. There is NO challenge to that! You keep saying that this game isn't competitive, you couldn't be more wrong. It's you and other players vs. the game, that's the competition. I want the game to be a well balanced challenge which will make it more exciting for players, you want a game in which you can do anything you want at any time and I'm telling you that for the vast majority of people that won't be fun. Exploration for the sake of exploration is BORING, there has to be a reward for it. If the main point of the game is exploration then what is your problem with making it a challenge? It doesn't have to be a grind either but at least make the game interesting. 

You're saying "just don't use it", I'm saying that the mere existence of this exploit makes the game worse whether I use it or not because it trivialises one of the major parts of playing this game. And I'm not saying remove the trade beacon or the fuel condenser, but they sure as hell need to nerf them.

 

 

 

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Quote

xploring is fun' but I don't want to go a 'long way from my base'. Hypocrisy of the highest order..

No it isn't.  I like going jumping between planets, (and locations on the planets) rather than spend ever larger amounts of time getting fuel for the ship.  I rather be finding new research, items, or other valuable resources rather than spending ever increasing amounts of time hauling fuel back and forth.

 

If I wanted to play a fuel truck simulator I would be playing one.  Finding fuel is a chore that would become more and more onerous without the condenser in the game.

Edited by Twilight Sparkle

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So suggest a creative mode where fuel isn't required to explore instead of arguing that a broken mechanic be kept in the main game. And so long as you're 'going jumping between planets, (and locations on the planets' you won't have to spend 'ever larger amounts of time getting fuel' because all you have to do is suck fuel out of the ground, which you'll find plenty of if you're exploring like you claim you'd rather do than 'spending ever increasing amounts of time hauling fuel back and forth' yet you're fine with spending time waiting in front of a building for fuel to appear out of nowhere INSTEAD of exploring for that fuel? Yes that's hypocrisy. ¬¬

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4 hours ago, Chapmanzee said:

Seriously dude, did you even read what I posted. There is NO challenge to that! You keep saying that this game isn't competitive, you couldn't be more wrong. It's you and other players vs. the game, that's the competition. I want the game to be a well balanced challenge which will make it more exciting for players, you want a game in which you can do anything you want at any time and I'm telling you that for the vast majority of people that won't be fun. Exploration for the sake of exploration is BORING, there has to be a reward for it. If the main point of the game is exploration then what is your problem with making it a challenge? It doesn't have to be a grind either but at least make the game interesting. 

You're saying "just don't use it", I'm saying that the mere existence of this exploit makes the game worse whether I use it or not because it trivialises one of the major parts of playing this game. And I'm not saying remove the trade beacon or the fuel condenser, but they sure as hell need to nerf them.

 

 

 

 

So if other players want to play the game their way, let them.

Don't change the game because of YOUR notions of what the game 'should' be. The way the system is right now doesn't hurt you, you can choose not to do it.

You're trying to decide what's better for OTHERS by removing something they want.

Don't do that.

Whether the 'exploit'(Which is funny because it's not an exploit at all) does anything to any part of the game literally doesn't matter, because you can choose not to use it. You're not fighting other players for tech or resources or weapons or money or anything. What they do doesn't matter. Let them do what they want.

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I believe the trade post has been disabled from the research tree ive been trying to get it to cash some of the titanium in ive been researching and its never shown up yet.

Trade post is a mega exploit because you can load a titanium on it hit button to launch then remove the titanium and you still get your ordered resources. 

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1 hour ago, Slywyn said:

So if other players want to play the game their way, let them.

Don't change the game because of YOUR notions of what the game 'should' be. The way the system is right now doesn't hurt you, you can choose not to do it.

You're trying to decide what's better for OTHERS by removing something they want.

Don't do that.

Whether the 'exploit'(Which is funny because it's not an exploit at all) does anything to any part of the game literally doesn't matter, because you can choose not to use it. You're not fighting other players for tech or resources or weapons or money or anything. What they do doesn't matter. Let them do what they want.

You're not listening, so I'm just gonna stop this conversation here.

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1 hour ago, Slywyn said:

So if other players want to play the game their way, let them.

Don't change the game because of YOUR notions of what the game 'should' be. The way the system is right now doesn't hurt you, you can choose not to do it.

You're trying to decide what's better for OTHERS by removing something they want.

Don't do that.

Whether the 'exploit'(Which is funny because it's not an exploit at all) does anything to any part of the game literally doesn't matter, because you can choose not to use it. You're not fighting other players for tech or resources or weapons or money or anything. What they do doesn't matter. Let them do what they want.

it is a concern for OTHERS as well....look what's the point of paying 20$(maybe even more at release) on a game that you easily beat in the first 2 hours.

You just said that you just want to explore, im with ya here we all should focus on exploring more...but...i know this is pre-alpha, but unless at release they make each and every planet entirely different...and i do mean ENTIRELY(meaning each planet has its own special resources, has its own terrain formation maybe not have caves but mountains or water, has its own unique hazards that each one you have to challenge in a way, has its own flaura and has its own distinct research) i dont think anyones gonna have fun exploring after landing on a planet since right now all the new things you get from new planets are the same things you find on you home planets caves but here they are on the surface (except coal titanium and lythium but meh...titanium and lithium can be gathered from research while coal doesnt really seem that useful) 

Dont get me wrong i do hope that every planet is distinct in its own way not just biome changes, but for right now fuel condenser gotta be reworked:(

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It's not been disabled.

And the whole 'just don't use it' 'it's a choice' argument is redundant. You could say that about anything including god mode and you can't argue that that wouldn't ruin things if you could just activate it in a normal game at any point.

It's alpha. Just because something is a certain way and you like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed especially if it breaks the balance and the flow of the game. The game flows nicely up to a certain point and then it's easy mode. Can't say it's not exploitative of an imbalanced feature. If you want free reign to just explore without being tethered by needing resources for things then you could play creative mode when it's added in but it's alpha and that might not come for a while but it still doesn't mean you should argue that a feature that kills off an aspect of the game be kept the way it is.

The people arguing for balancing the condenser/trade depot are doing so for the betterment of the game as a whole to let it grow into something even more amazing and to not let it get too stale because people got all their game content through abusing a combo of two buildings. They're bringing real arguments for why it's cheap and overpowered and want the others to really see why it would ruin things by still being the way it is in the complete game that a lot more people will be accessing for the first time. It'll be common to hear comments about the game like 'it was a really cool and fun game but the gameplay kind of got too easy and stale once you get the trade depot and just trade infinite fuel for other resources'.

The people arguing against balancing the mechanic seem to just be doing so because they only care about their personal experience and only bring fallacious, repetitive and ignorant arguments, not really reading the thread at all or acknowledging any part of the argument for changes and evaluating a solution that doesn't involve 'just don't use it', which is not really a solution. If you were playing doom back in the day for example and you got through a couple of levels and found a trick to have infinite ammo, health, armour etc (not talking about console cheats ;) ) but didn't like the fact that you could do that, the solution to keep the same level of challenge and engagement wouldn't be 'just don't use it', your conclusion would be that something is inherently imbalanced with the game and your enjoyment would suffer from that.

Thankfully these days we're at a stage in game development where things can be shaped from the ground up with feedback from a playtesting base so huge with so much variety of opinion that either side could end up getting what they wanted. The people that just want to freely explore without constraints such as gathering fuel for space travel or materials for building can get a creative mode, and the people that want the game to retain the challenging aspects of material and fuel requirements will continue to play the main survival mode game with nerfed/reworked and improved condenser and trade mechanics.

And I really do hope that there will be creative mode so that both sides of the argument can be happy.

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Instead of nerfing the fuel condenser or changing the ratio in which it trades, why not take the best of both worlds.

One of the ways you can do this is make it a bit harder to get to the infinite resource part of the game. 

1. Make it so that the Fuel condenser works like the smelter except for Hydrazine crystals. 

2. Instead of getting rid of the infinite resource facilitate it by making a "crystal growth tank/farm/building" That uses power and something like O2, which has no real use in game right now except to facilitate early state exploration, to grow crystals. This can be a rare research item so that you can't get it early game or potentially even mid game.  

This way people can focus on base building and research exploration late game yet still need to go resource harvesting early and mid game.

Now the reason I think that this sort of infinite resource generation should stick around, at least for late game content, is that I don't think it should work for truly rare materials, the kind that you shouldn't be able to trade for. The kind where you need to go to really harsh worlds to get, worlds that you can't survive in with out some suit upgrades or something like that. 

Please give feedback to help improves, or even change, this idea. 

 

 

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I'm hearing a lot of people not listening to the points being made for either side, either because they aren't reading the posts or aren't explaining themselves enough.

There are two problems with the system as it currently exists.

1) The Hydrazine condenser removes the need to search for more resources, so leaving it as is upon release would provide an exploit that could drastically ruin a core component of the game.

2) This game is neither complete nor competitive. The game is currently in a co-operative setup, so concepts like "balance" and "fairness" are moot points, thus have no place in the conversation about the state of the game. Yes, it is possible to get everything in the game with a Hydrazine trading farm, but those are not intended to remain as they are. At this point, they work well to show that A) trading works and B) building a large base won't crash the game.

If any of you are concerned about the balance of the game, quit playing Astroneer now, since bug fixing and stability in the engine are infinitely more important to the devs right now than whether or not it is "fair" that you and a friend can get every item in the game for free. In fact, building lots of tethers is something the devs have asked the player base to do for the BETA steam build, which is much more difficult to test when the players have to constantly be searching for more resource nodes.

Sorry if this comes across as short, that's not my intention. Some of you people just need to slow down, breathe, and take a moment to think about what the person you're about to hastily reply to really meant.

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