Chapmanzee

Either fuel shouldn't be tradeable or the Fuel Condenser should be taken out of the game.

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I think the fuel condenser is a good idea but I think when you go mine hydrazine it should be given in a crystal form and you take it to the condenser which then liquidizes the crystal in to fuel, this way it would stop me turning energy on a daily basis in to tanks of fuel and then loading it on to my trade port ship and getting other materials I need so easy :D haha

It does ruin game because you don't need to explore no more, you just start cheating fuel tanks from sunlight :) I don't understand why crystal hydrazine turns in to liquid anyways doesn't make sense to me least not when I personally mine it should remain crystal form and the condenser does the liquid change over would give it more purpose!

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51 minutes ago, Psy said:

I think the fuel condenser is a good idea but I think when you go mine hydrazine it should be given in a crystal form and you take it to the condenser which then liquidizes the crystal in to fuel, this way it would stop me turning energy on a daily basis in to tanks of fuel and then loading it on to my trade port ship and getting other materials I need so easy :D haha

It does ruin game because you don't need to explore no more, you just start cheating fuel tanks from sunlight :) I don't understand why crystal hydrazine turns in to liquid anyways doesn't make sense to me least not when I personally mine it should remain crystal form and the condenser does the liquid change over would give it more purpose!

I think this would also be a good substitute

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I do definitely see that the fuel condenser can absolutely be used to short circuit much of the gameplay. It's just that I'm not sure it should be removed from the game or even changed drastically. If I want to go mine fuel I go mine it and if I don't I condense it. It's optional which to me means it's only as broken as you make it. I like having it because sometimes I just want to go fly around and don't feel like grinding fuel. For me, sometimes it dosent add much to the game to HAVE to grind resources. Just a thought

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I also agree that fuel should either be limited as Psy said, by processing crystals, said OR not tradeable... eventually.  Right now at this stage of development figuring out that you can create and trade hydrazine basically constitutes endgame for base building.  The only thing after that is planetary exploration, which we can do with the infinite resources available by hydrazine trading.

Edited by CherubimCW

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I think that its only unbalanced if you use it that way, if you want to explore, just don't use it. I only use it for things like lithium that I can never find large enough quantities of by exploring.

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1 hour ago, Chapmanzee said:

It just breaks the game and makes exploration pointless.

Then don't use it. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one.

You hurt nothing by not using a system you don't like.

The fuel condenser + trading post is the only way to get certain resources on some planets.

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1 hour ago, Slywyn said:

Then don't use it. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one.

You hurt nothing by not using a system you don't like.

The fuel condenser + trading post is the only way to get certain resources on some planets.

Wrong. Sure, a trading system can be a viable part of a game with resource collecting, processing and crafting etc. but that doesn't mean that you're required to use an infinite item generation to utilise that trading system.

The systems of both the trade depot and the fuel condenser need looking at and the arguments against changing them (the 'just dont use it' argument) are pretty weak.

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Fuel condenser should stay.  Hunting for fuel isn't as fun as exploring for interesting items, lore, etc.  I do like it in its current form.  Not to mention, you do eventually use up all nearby fuel sources and would take long periods of time to refuel as you would have to hunt for it a long way from your base.

 

There are ways to keep it in game but discourage massive trading operations.... for example

  • The fuel probably could be made the cheapest item for trade.  - I like this idea as it allows you to fuel your spaceship up without doing busy work of hunting for fuel.  If you need 1 resin... you could use up allot of fuel to get it... but it will generally be quicker/easier to just fly to another planet/location and mine resources there.
  • The fuel condensation process could take a longer time to complete.

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44 minutes ago, Nafen said:

Wrong. Sure, a trading system can be a viable part of a game with resource collecting, processing and crafting etc. but that doesn't mean that you're required to use an infinite item generation to utilise that trading system.

The systems of both the trade depot and the fuel condenser need looking at and the arguments against changing them (the 'just dont use it' argument) are pretty weak.

 

Uh, no.

Just don't use them.

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5 minutes ago, Slywyn said:

Uh, no.

Just don't use them.

You don't use them because you don't like them and the people who do use them don't like them... What's the problem with changing something like that?

Edited by Chapmanzee

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4 minutes ago, Chapmanzee said:

You don't use them because you don't like them and the people who do use them don't like them... What's the problem with changing something like that?

A) It's the only way to get resources on certain planets.

B) It being available doesn't matter, because you can choose not to use it.

C) This isn't a competitive game, so something being 'overpowered' doesn't matter.

D) Resources aren't even the main goals of the game, research is. This can't give you research.

E) The game is an exploration game. Getting extra resources doesn't matter.

The trading platform changes nothing, it makes nothing worse, it does not detract from the main focus of the game(exploration), and you can choose not to use it if you don't like it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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4 hours ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

Fuel condenser should stay.  Hunting for fuel isn't as fun as exploring for interesting items, lore, etc.  I do like it in its current form.  Not to mention, you do eventually use up all nearby fuel sources and would take long periods of time to refuel as you would have to hunt for it a long way from your base.

 

There are ways to keep it in game but discourage massive trading operations.... for example

  • The fuel probably could be made the cheapest item for trade.  - I like this idea as it allows you to fuel your spaceship up without doing busy work of hunting for fuel.  If you need 1 resin... you could use up allot of fuel to get it... but it will generally be quicker/easier to just fly to another planet/location and mine resources there.
  • The fuel condensation process could take a longer time to complete.

'Exploring is fun' but I don't want to go a 'long way from my base'. Hypocrisy of the highest order..

4 hours ago, Slywyn said:

A) It's the only way to get resources on certain planets.

B) It being available doesn't matter, because you can choose not to use it.

C) This isn't a competitive game, so something being 'overpowered' doesn't matter.

D) Resources aren't even the main goals of the game, research is. This can't give you research.

E) The game is an exploration game. Getting extra resources doesn't matter.

The trading platform changes nothing, it makes nothing worse, it does not detract from the main focus of the game(exploration), and you can choose not to use it if you don't like it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

A) Wrong, making Hydrazine out of nothing and then trading it for something you need is NOT the only way to get resources on certain planets. You can trade any other resource that you actually went and EXPLORED for (since people are making such a big deal about wanting to explore)

B) It does matter, because we want the game to be balanced and not trivialised by imbalanced mechanics.

C) Even cooperative games have competitive elements even if it is something as simple as competing against the world they are in (which if you're travelling to a planet that is lacking in resources you should be prepared to take resources from your home planet to the new one, not just land there and start spawning resources from nowhere)

D) I thought it was exploration? Once again nobody can say what the main goal of the game is at it is basically a sandbox game. The game does have research, yes. It does have exploration, yes. IT has resource gathering and inventory management also. But somehow 'this isn't one of the main goals' ? It's as important as the others.

E) It's a sandbox with exploration AND resource gathering. It's funny how the argument isn't reversed 100% for people who like the resource gathering as well.

You're saying you don't want to gather resources because you want to just explore, so you stand in front of a fuel tank clicking to make fuel come out of nothing.

But we don't say 'We want to gather resources, we don't want to just explore. Make a 'resource spawner' building that makes resource deposits appear out of thin air using time and power. It's okay, we'll just stand here in front of our building occasionally pressing the button so it makes resources deposits in the ground for us.

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Yeah it needs to be fixed. It takes the challenge out of the game and you progress too quickly.  It is far too easy to expand and travel to distant worlds once you become a full scale hydrazine trader.

I like the idea of using the condenser to 'smelt' the hydrazine crystals into gas.  

What if the trading platform could be updated with market data? Even though you are playing 'solo' it knows that everyone playing the game is trying to offload hydrazine so the price plummets. It takes 8 to make one compound and won't even give you a rare item for it.  The market could settle based on this and introduce a unique solo yet multiplayer experience.

Edited by Zeus

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Changes to the trade depot are sorely needed I think but it's sort of a two pronged spear, both the trade depot and fuel condenser are way too powerful in their current form, so both of them together are exponentially overpowered.

A supply/demand system would be cool, either using player data from the 'cloud' (cause of course ;) ) or just loosely randomised AI traders with different haves/needs. Sort of like the villager trading in Minecraft (though I haven't played that game in quite some time) but you wouldn't have to walk all the way to a village to find that their current trades are crap, you could see it at your trade depot terminal thingy.

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2 hours ago, Nafen said:

'Exploring is fun' but I don't want to go a 'long way from my base'. Hypocrisy of the highest order..

A) Wrong, making Hydrazine out of nothing and then trading it for something you need is NOT the only way to get resources on certain planets. You can trade any other resource that you actually went and EXPLORED for (since people are making such a big deal about wanting to explore)

B) It does matter, because we want the game to be balanced and not trivialised by imbalanced mechanics.

C) Even cooperative games have competitive elements even if it is something as simple as competing against the world they are in (which if you're travelling to a planet that is lacking in resources you should be prepared to take resources from your home planet to the new one, not just land there and start spawning resources from nowhere)

D) I thought it was exploration? Once again nobody can say what the main goal of the game is at it is basically a sandbox game. The game does have research, yes. It does have exploration, yes. IT has resource gathering and inventory management also. But somehow 'this isn't one of the main goals' ? It's as important as the others.

E) It's a sandbox with exploration AND resource gathering. It's funny how the argument isn't reversed 100% for people who like the resource gathering as well.

You're saying you don't want to gather resources because you want to just explore, so you stand in front of a fuel tank clicking to make fuel come out of nothing.

But we don't say 'We want to gather resources, we don't want to just explore. Make a 'resource spawner' building that makes resource deposits appear out of thin air using time and power. It's okay, we'll just stand here in front of our building occasionally pressing the button so it makes resources deposits in the ground for us.

 

Don't like it? Don't use it. Problem solved.

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10 hours ago, Psy said:

I think the fuel condenser is a good idea but I think when you go mine hydrazine it should be given in a crystal form and you take it to the condenser which then liquidizes the crystal in to fuel, this way it would stop me turning energy on a daily basis in to tanks of fuel and then loading it on to my trade port ship and getting other materials I need so easy :D haha

It does ruin game because you don't need to explore no more, you just start cheating fuel tanks from sunlight :) I don't understand why crystal hydrazine turns in to liquid anyways doesn't make sense to me least not when I personally mine it should remain crystal form and the condenser does the liquid change over would give it more purpose!

+1 yes i like this idea, but it may be problematic if you end up trapped on another planet and you didnt pay attention that your fuel is low...although thinking about it this can be quite a fun adventure if you can manage to build a fuel condenser on your trapped planet and get out :D

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When multiplayer gets really developed the Fuel Condenser as-is will break the game for any players interested in creating their own economy. One player can use a Fuel Condenser and Trading Post to get free and basically unlimited resources, and this will create huge inflation in the player-to-player trading economy, so everyone that wants to participate in that economy will be forced to fuel-condenser-grind. All of a sudden, game sucks.  Making the Fuel Condenser work more slowly really inconveniences the player who only uses it to fill his shuttles.

I think the simplest solution is to make hydrazine completely untradable. Barring that, perhaps there is Condensed Hydrazine, and Mined Hydrazine, and the condensed stuff is very weak (as in, need more to fuel ships, and doesn't trade for very much at all. I'm talking like one hundredth of a penny in a dollar system, or less.)

Edited by TexasToast

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13 minutes ago, Chapmanzee said:

Okay this dude is just trolling at this point, ignore him.

Way ahead of you.

I welcome counter-arguments but not when it's the same lazy repeated line.

I'm sure that the developers would absolutely love discussions like this with opinions on either side, really good feedback on what different people would want from the game.

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Simply making Hydrazine non-tradable would solve this issue, there doesn't have to be a complex rebalancing of the trade system nor of the Hydrazine creation process.

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21 minutes ago, Wolff Laarcen said:

Simply making Hydrazine non-tradable would solve this issue, there doesn't have to be a complex rebalancing of the trade system nor of the Hydrazine creation process.

Game with simplistic facade has to make sense and be intuitive.

1. being able to trade hydrazine since u can trade everything else makes sense.

2. Smelting ore to refined materials makes sense.  

3. Creating rocket fuel from electricity doesn't make sense... especially when it looks like a crystal in the ground and this is turned into a liquid in your mining device.

So in essence, if you mined the hydrazine crystal then converted that into gas with the condenser all would be well again with the universe.

Edited by Zeus

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Just now, Zeus said:

Game sort of making sense and being intuitive will only help it. So being able to trade hydrazine since u can trade everything else makes sense. Smelting ore to refined materials makes sense.  Creating rocket fuel from electricity doesn't make sense... especially when it looks like a crystal in the ground and this is turned into a liquid in your mining device.

Well if you can suspend disbelief for game mechanics like the terrain deforming tool and the research machine, why can't you suspend disbelief for Hydrazine being non-tradable?

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