malnaur

'Respawn at home' really is a bug!

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Die in the field and respawn back at home base is a terrible mechanic. Minecraft has it right. Last occupied vehicle should become the new respawn target. Unlike MC, this means the respawn point is tied to a moving object, not a geographic coordinate, but so what? This should be no harder to implement. Where you respawn has an enormous impact on playability because it is tied directly to the penalty for death. That should be carefully considered. Losing a few backpack items is one thing. Effectively losing an entire vehicle train, storage addons, whatever was collected on them, etc. means hours of play lost and that's too much. Even building a new rover just to go fetch what was lost is uncertain and very time consuming.

Please fix this in the next update. It's that important.

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You also have the option to reload the last saved game which is updated each time you enter a vehicle.

2 hours ago, malnaur said:

Where you respawn has an enormous impact on playability because it is tied directly to the penalty for death. That should be carefully considered.

I agree, that should be considered carefully. However, when you ask 3 people about this topic, then you get at least 4 opinions. It might be intended by the developers to make it more dangerous the farther you are away from your base. In one of the live streams from SES (sorry, I can't remember which one exactly it was), Adam Bromell mentioned that he would like to make the game more difficult the deeper you go into the caves.

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If those other people have an argument for their opinions better than mine then I might change my mind. The simple fact they have opinions is not important. *Everyone* has opinions. The game automatically becomes more difficult the deeper you go since you have to go all the way back to dump each load and can more easily get lost. That time penalty is already significant and progressive. There are many ways to make the deeper caverns more dangerous including traps, animals, etc. However, If I lose an entire day's worth of play recreating all the crap I just lost because of some 'make it progressively harder' strategy, I will quickly lose interest. I don't play games so I can be that worried about dying. The reward for that risk will also have to be huge (e.g., incredible rares) and that becomes an arms race for the developers. No one wants that.

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All I'm trying to say is that there probably are reasons for it being implemented the way it currently is. Apparently, there are different opinions about this, so it won't change without some discussion. And I think this won't be prioritized over other more pressing issues. Therefore, it is very unlikely to change in the near future.

If you lose interest in the game because of this, then that is unfortunate. You could try to adapt your strategy by bringing a habitat with you to establish a forward base, where you could respawn in case of death.

Consider opening a thread in the "General Discussion" section to discuss this topic. The exchange of arguments can help the developers (and the community) to decide, if and what change is desirable. This is a game in early access, after all, and input like yours helps shaping the game.

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In Vanilla Minecraft you always spawn back at 0,0 coords, so unsure what your comment means. Either way there has been a few topics about spawning back at your vehicle, the issue with this is that you can just drive a rover all the way into a cave and keep saving at it, zero risk deaths, they mind as well just remove health if they did that because dieing would be meaningless. Even if you can't get the rover back out who cares? It's 2 compound and plenty of seats to find so that's free. I don't like the idea of canceling out the meaning of death completely for the price of 2 compound, the most common resource on the starting planet.

Now if they made some sort of item you could put on your truck that is rather expensive, to allow you to respawn in the vehicle, I guess that could work. Has anyone tried putting a home pod on a car and seeing if it works as a viable spawn? I know you can get in them but never tried dieing to respawn in it. Could be interesting to test. Either way the trade-off there is less vehicle space and something you wont want to just leave behind because it got it's use.

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Marck,

Thanks for engaging instead of just shutting me down. I started this thread here because I assume it will get more attention than in 'discussion' where most forum's ideas go to die. I have to point out that your strategy supports my argument. I *have* a habitat with me: the truck! The vehicles in the game *are* the forward bases. That's how they work and that should be handled consistently. I would even argue that the vehicles be enhanced to allow the player to build off the end attachments just like they do with a shuttle or spaceship but the fact that vehicles get blown around makes that harder.

Changing the way the spawn point gets updated should be trivial since the game save code already runs whenever you get in the truck. The only complication I see is that the spawn point becomes attached to a movable object instead of a geographic coordinate.

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In Minecraft, you respawn at your last sleep bed so you can use that to set your spawn point at any place in the game.

I disagree that you can just drive a rover into a cave. You won't get very far that way. You also can't carry much on a rover so long expeditions on a rover are pointless. A fully loaded truck with fully loaded trailer is a substantial outlay of resources including the lithium ro build a large battery so you can drive all night. Plus, having spent the time filling all that storage with juicy stuff and then losing it all is not 'free'.

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Ah yes, I forgot about the bed mechanic, been a while. In general I don't know if you can compare the 2 games though, MC is afterall endless generating, and the few planets we have aren't really that big, also items despawn in MC after like 2 minutes, where they never despawn in Astroneer. I guess there will always be different opinions about this topic. I drive rovers deep in caves all the time to keep tether lines short since they cause so many FPS issues, all the caves I've found are plenty big enough and mostly ramp down or up, no steep drop offs or anything.

You also mention in your last sentence that it's not free to lose it, but you don't really lose it you just have to go back, with the planets being so small it's a pretty easy task as long as you remember the direction and have supplies ready to handle those situations, such as backup oxygen to walk back, or another rover to drive back. I have bases on 3 planets, 2 on Terran, 1 on Radiated and 1 on Tundra. I've only ever lost 1 vehicle on the way back to it, and it was because it fell through the ground and was never seen again. Beacons, backup vehicles and oxygen make it easy. 

For me personally as I said in my first post, and I know this could differ from person to person, to each their own, but being able to use a vehicle as a spawn point would really take all the challenge out of the game. I already bring rovers into caves, and sometimes trucks if I flatten the cave a bit more, if I just spawned back in it man would it be a buzz kill, talk about no challenge at all, death would be meaningless.

Maybe there will be difficulty settings in the future though, easy would let you spawn in vehicles and hard would be back at base. Would open up more options for other features as well to make both opinions happy.

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2 hours ago, malnaur said:

In Minecraft, you respawn at your last sleep bed so you can use that to set your spawn point at any place in the game.

If Minecraft has it right, then what is the difference to bringing a habitat so you can use that to set your spawn point? (I never played Minecraft, so I don't know.)

2 hours ago, malnaur said:

I have to point out that your strategy supports my argument. I *have* a habitat with me: the truck! The vehicles in the game *are* the forward bases. That's how they work and that should be handled consistently.

I disagree. Respawing at vehicles after death results in a completely different gameplay. By bringing a separate habitat, you have to strategically plan where to place/plant it in order to make exploration of the vicinity less dangerous. If you have a respawn point right with you all the time, you basically remove danger completely, because death essentially becomes meaningless, as pointed out by VirtualJunky. Right now, you can already reload a game that was saved when entering a vehicle, but that at least makes you go through the cycle of entering the game menu and reloading, which could be considered as some kind of punishment for dieing because it takes you out of the game.

If you want to play Astroneer without any danger of dieing, as some kind of creative mode, I can understand that. But please do not force this style of gameplay on everbody by asking for the removal of the penalty for death completely. Instead, I would prefer this to be an option as part of the gameplay. For example, it could be a respawn beacon as described by VirtualJunky, a researchable item that protects you from all hazards when worn, food that depletes similarly to a power or oxygen resource stack with each damage that you take, etc. That way, each player can choose if s/he wants to use it or not.

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I never suggested no penalty for dieing. What I don't want is a penalty for dieing so severe that it reduces to a lot of grinding. There is an intellectual challenge to avoiding dieing that has nothing to do with the physical penalty. If you need a *punishment* to want to avoid dieing, that says something about the player, not the game. I've got maybe 50 hours of game play in at this point and I'm still far more invested in seeing the cool caves and finding that next deposit of whatever than the challenge of staying alive. The only time I die at this point is some slip of the finger that is plenty aggravating all by itself without additional grief. Once you get the mechanics down, rushing becomes the last enemy.

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3 hours ago, malnaur said:

I never suggested no penalty for dieing. What I don't want is a penalty for dieing so severe that it reduces to a lot of grinding.

In the game in its current state, you can avoid much of the grinding by using the tools already available in the game, i.e. habitats. In this context, I am still interested in your answer regarding the difference between using habitats in Astroneer and using sleep beds in Minecraft.

3 hours ago, malnaur said:

There is an intellectual challenge to avoiding dieing that has nothing to do with the physical penalty. If you need a *punishment* to want to avoid dieing, that says something about the player, not the game.

Yes, there are players who need or want this punishment as part of a challenge. It is one way to play the game. You want another. Don't you think it is better to allow both ways of playing, instead of favoring one over the other?

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Sleep beds are trivial to make almost anywhere you are in minecraft. Habitats require building a mini-base to then craft the next habitat. They also clutter the planet with landing points that all look the same. Until there is a way to better tag specific beacons, that clutter will be annoying. They also consume a double mount point where a bed is just a single slot (of which you have many more in the standard minecraft backpack).

I'm all for choice. I would like to have one on this topic. Currently, I don't.

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Nice. So something similar to Minecraft's sleep bed is required. I created a new topic in the Suggestions & Ideas section of the forum with some ideas for implementing this in Astroneer. Perhaps you want to add to it:

 

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I would be happy if I could even get a flipping map to where my vehicle is if the dying and return to habitat becomes a permanent thing (though I hope it doesn't) it is SO hard to find your vehicle if you tend to venture out as far as I do in order to find crashed ships. 

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If dieing is a problem for you then just stop doing things that will kill you. I have played this since mid December and think I have died a handfull of times, so just play carefully. I do have character stuck in a habitat, but he is alive.

Edited by Capt_Harpoon

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On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 9:33 AM, malnaur said:

Where you respawn has an enormous impact on playability because it is tied directly to the penalty for death...  Effectively losing an entire vehicle train, storage addons, whatever was collected on them, etc. means hours of play lost and that's too much. Even building a new rover just to go fetch what was lost is uncertain and very time consuming.

Why would you lose an entire vehicle train, and why is going to fetch it uncertain?  Unless of course you traveled too far over the horizon from your base and failed to set beacons along the way.

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:59 AM, Marck said:

It might be intended by the developers to make it more dangerous the farther you are away from your base.

Exactly.

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 3:17 PM, malnaur said:

The game automatically becomes more difficult the deeper you go since you have to go all the way back to dump each load and can more easily get lost.... I don't play games so I can be that worried about dying.

You're missing the point of this particular game... the devs want people to be that worried about dying, and to figure out ways to not easily get lost (both on the surface and down in caves). Die in the field and respawn back at home base is a fine mechanic, I hope they don't change it.

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 7:41 AM, malnaur said:

Until there is a way to better tag specific beacons, that clutter will be annoying.

You are right on that point, however the devs have plans to address it as we have seen in the thread linked below.  We just have to be patient during this pre-alpha phase of the game.

 

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17 minutes ago, Pi_ said:

You're missing the point of this particular game... the devs want people to be that worried about dying, and to figure out ways to not easily get lost (both on the surface and down in caves). Die in the field and respawn back at home base is a fine mechanic, I hope they don't change it.

From my understanding, malnaur already agreed on adding the feature he wants, instead of asking to change the existing mechanic. In my opinion, this is a legitimate approach. A sandbox game like Astroneer can support different styles of gameplay. That's why I started the related thread over at Suggestions & Ideas. This particular addition could even be regarded as a step towards implementing something similar to a creative mode in Astroneer.

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Yeah, I didn't mean to say they should not add some feature that let's you respawn wherever you want.  Maybe it could be in the proposed difficulty options.

However I would not call Astroneer a sandbox game... not yet anyway.  To be truly sandbox would mean you get everything from the beginning.  In other words, in sandbox mode you would start with all blueprints/recipes, and tethers would be absent because your backpack would never run out of power or oxygen.

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Whatever you actually call it, would it harm Astroneer as a game if it allowed for various kinds of gameplay?

And if you could offer those various styles through gameplay itself instead of menu options, say by choosing which modules you print or what items you combine, wouldn't this nicely fit into Astroneer's approach with its diegetic interface, and therefore be preferable?

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