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On 12/17/2016 at 8:57 PM, Daroguetoaster said:

Being able to build that single unit, and never having to mine ever again seems like an exploit to me.  

Odd. In my latest game I have not deployed a single Tether nor have I built a Trading Platform and I'm doing quite fine in regards to materials. Better than fine actually, it's very liberating and fun. Sounds like there's more than one way to skin a cat?

If people are using Condenser/Trade as a META, so be it. There's such a thing as lazy gamers and acquisition of materials is not end-game nor is it 'winning'. But if SES does indeed add some kind of player-driven economy it will throw that all out of whack.

To each their own. But I'd wait and see what kind of requirements are needed on the more top tier items later in the game before screaming nerf. Fuel does indeed burn fast so...

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1 minute ago, optyk said:

Odd. In my latest game I have not deployed a single Tether nor have I built a Trading Platform and I'm doing quite fine in regards to materials. Better than fine actually, it's very liberating and fun. Sounds like there's more than one way to skin a cat?

If people are using Condenser/Trade as a META, so be it. There's such a thing as lazy gamers and acquisition of materials is not end-game nor is it 'winning'. But if SES does indeed add some kind of player-driven economy it will throw that all out of whack.

To each their own. But I'd wait and see what kind of requirements are needed on the more top tier items later in the game before screaming nerf. Fuel does indeed burn fast so...

Great, you're using a self-imposed limit to avoid imbalanced parts of the game. I commend you. But wouldn't it be better if we didn't have to self-impose ?

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I say leave it the way things are now only because I really do enjoy playing this game. It's fun, easy to play and peaceful. There's other games that are of a survival type genre that offer a higher difficulty level. I love this game so much better than no man's sky and some other survival games because I'm not constantly dying and I'm seeing progress as I explore and find things. I love exploring and I think that's what no man's sky took away from. This is the type of game no man's sky should have been but they failed. I hope this game will become the game of the year as it's something I look forward to playing and enjoy as a gamer.

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1 minute ago, Nafen said:

Great, you're using a self-imposed limit to avoid imbalanced parts of the game. I commend you. But wouldn't it be better if we didn't have to self-impose ?

Using the Refinery to trade for resources is not self-imposed gameplay? 1 coin, 2 sides.

I did not say play my way. I said it's possible to achieve what that 'exploit' achieves without using that method. Meaning, the game is allowing people to do how they wish when they wish. AKA: No Rails. But alas, some people are lost without them and have to have them and then yes, force others into playing a specific way.

How is it imbalanced? What's this balance you are referring to that's getting all messed up?

Wouldn't it be better if we didn't have to chase a META?

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On 12/20/2016 at 5:39 PM, Martin said:

 

It has everything to do with it.  Not using it is not a stupid responce, it's common sence.  You don't get the right to decide how everyone else plays in a single player game, you get to decide only how you play.  If you think you're exploiting the game, then stop.  How hard is that??

Competition isn't necessarily against other players.  But people have the right to enjoy their games as they see fit. Or as developers see fit.  Remembering of course.. that if the devs make the mistake of removing any and all possible exploits from a game, they actually also remove a big chunk of fun and tactics and this in turn, turns people away from buying their games.   It's the main reason I've stopped buying alot of peoples games, like blizzard, ea, rockstar etc.. They are just clones, not fun.

 

I'm not trying to add fuel to a fire here, but having infinite resources created from nothing is quite literally 1 step away from using console commands. If you want free items why not suggest them adding direct console access to those that do want this? Those of us that don't want it wouldn't have to use it and those that want to play fair without the temptation of using it no longer have to worry about it.

 

Edit: On the plus side, having infinite free resources does help us test a majority of the stuff in the pre-alpha and beyond releases without having to grind our way to it. Not saying I'm in favor of it but for final release balance should highly be taken into consideration. 

Edited by Mr Guy

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Well they changed it now.  But I never used it as an exploit, because I chose not to.  I think it is inherently unfair for everyone else to suffer because of the inability of a few.

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тебе какая разница есть он или нет? не нравится конденсатор не строй не надо ипать мозги другим людям 

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On 12/18/2016 at 0:33 PM, Bihlbo said:

It's not an exploit. That's how the game is meant to be played.

correction. this is exploitation. being able to have an infinite amount of any object is what i would consider exploitation.  

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10 hours ago, Martin said:

Well they changed it now.  But I never used it as an exploit, because I chose not to.  I think it is inherently unfair for everyone else to suffer because of the inability of a few.

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you even know if this was the Dev's intention? In a stream they talked about making this move faster because it's alpha so they could have a bigger test range. For all that you know, they wanted you to do so.

Now they did change it, but they just made it so that it takes more fuel and more time, but you can still use the condenser to get any type of (known) material that you want. That means it has now been proven to be by their design. 

5 hours ago, Skully said:

correction. this is exploitation. being able to have an infinite amount of any object is what i would consider exploitation.  

The devs created these blocks with arrows pointing into them. They have an infinite amount (though a limit on how much at one time) of the object that they represent. By your definition, the devs are exploiting their own game.

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16 minutes ago, Dragonphire said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you even know if this was the Dev's intention? In a stream they talked about making this move faster because it's alpha so they could have a bigger test range. For all that you know, they wanted you to do so.

Now they did change it, but they just made it so that it takes more fuel and more time, but you can still use the condenser to get any type of (known) material that you want. That means it has now been proven to be by their design. 

The devs created these blocks with arrows pointing into them. They have an infinite amount (though a limit on how much at one time) of the object that they represent. By your definition, the devs are exploiting their own game.

I don't really want to get into this conversation anymore, suffice to say, everything can be exploited, that's what tactics are, using something to your advantage.  In mmos this might be using terrain to block npc's into so you can kill them with less risk, it could be doing something like running low level characters out to high level dungeons to exchange gold for lesser but heavier currency types (everquest) it could be shooting from between a 1mm gap in 2 buildings adjacent to each other to get the maximum defensive cover (Cod and various other shooters) eventually, everything will be exploited.

Is it cheating? Usually yeh.. but we usually define cheating when it's at a level where it causes other players issues.  ie Power leveling.. Terrain exploitation, Trade exploitation, item exploits and so on.  People will even use macros, mods, cheat systems, to bypass original game mechanics to get an advantage over everyone else.

It will always happen, does it make it right? No.  But the key difference should be, Can everyone do the same exploit or does it require some 3rd party software? If it's the former, then it really isn't important.  If it's the latter, then it really is.

The issue with the free condenser.. is really a non issue, you are not getting free fuel, you have to stand there pushing a button, that is the cost.   If it was free you'd just walk upto it and it'd give you 20 fuel but even then, there's a solid argument to say "you need to research it" that's a cost as well.

Using the condenser is far from free.  As it currently stands to get fuel at the original rate, you just need to build 2 of them.   Eventually however, the devs if they are only concerned with people getting an advantage will limit the number of modules you can build, limit the distance you can place specific units in relation to each other, set minimum distances etc etc and the issue just gets bogged down and it'll never be resolved, it will always be exploited, because people will find the easiest way, it's what we do.

Moral Responsibility,  is the ability to look at something and decide "yes I could, but I won't because it'd be unfair on myself and everyone else"  But is exploiting wrong? Only when you're using a 3rd party.  If everyone can do it, it's not really an exploit.

Edited by Martin

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On 18/12/2016 at 3:29 PM, Frigidman said:

What I dont understand is why people scream exploit at something that is generally done at their own behest. Are we doing pvp here, and at a race to the end?

If some people want to play their game sitting at a single unit, clicking a button over and over, and dragging items to another unit, and clicking buttons over and over... thats their own prerogative.

If someone else thinks thats 'too easy', then they are more then welcome to wander off into the countryside digging for fuel themselves and hauling it back.

While then there are those who just mix things up, plug some fuel in for a trade, go out exploring, doing whatever floats their boat.

 

I agree with further above "Stop trying to decide how other people get to play the game."

Isn't the whole point of an open pre-release us giving feedback on how the following players will play the game?

 

Say you want it, say you don't, but shouting each other down, or saying that someone should stop sharing their opinions is the oposite point of this entire exercise.

I hate it, I think that in the future it would ruin players fun, but I understand your point too.

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1 minute ago, nbrennan said:

Isn't the whole point of an open pre-release us giving feedback on how the following players will play the game?

 

Say you want it, say you don't, but shouting each other down, or saying that someone should stop sharing their opinions is the oposite point of this entire exercise.

I hate it, I think that in the future it would ruin players fun, but I understand your point too.

This isn't an issue.  But balance discussions should come later, lets work on finding bugs and getting new ideas into the game, instead of giving feedback on what's already here and working.

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Ok guys to let me make something clear: This game gives your freedom to do what you want. Wanna go exploring for stuff? Fine, you can do it. Wanna build a base? You can do it. Want to have to mine for resources? You can do it. Wanna make fuel that just takes power and 2 researches beforehand so you can trade it for resources to be able to do other things? You can do it!

 

Atm this is a exploration/sandbox game with a good measure of freedom. If you take away the fuel trade then you jsut take away the freedom from the player.

You as the player NEVER really have to use fuel-condenser + trade post unless your planet doesn't have the resources you need.

YOU as the player DECIDE if you want to build and use those two buildings (that also require research beforehand), you DON'T HAVE TO use it.

 

"I don't like that there is a way to get endless resources via things I have to work towards! It is tempting me to use it! I don't like having a OPTION to make my life easier if I WANTED OT USE IT! Remove please!" Do you see your OWN problem? Do you really want a game that dictates YOU (as the player) HOW YOU HAVE to play the game?

 

Now regarding the "getting stuff from thin air": That is just partially true. That is how trade works! You have something someone else wants (fuel) and they are willing to trade with you for some other things. They want something (this is called demand) and you offer that something they want (this is called supply).

Now going after supply and demand:

Fuel is used for flight in space (in game) and as such is a always needed good. This drives the price up.

BUT it can be created via a machine + power by anyone/everywhere. This drives the price down by a lot.

Simply by going with supply/demand fuel should be commodity and have a rather low price, I would even go as far as to say that you would have to trade 8 fuel for 1 titanium (one of the most valuable resources you can buy atm).

 

Example: You go to a supermarket to buy food so you can eat. You COULD grow/hunt your own food which would cost you time/work BUT since you want to do something else than spending time growing/hunting you pay someone for the food they supply.

^THIS is the exact arguments you are using atm! You don't HAVE TO grow your own food but you COULD do it.

 

This whole fuel-condenser + trade post thing is more or less a calculation of initial investment and profit.

You build up a infrastructure (got the resources + research) so you can supply something you can trade with others. YOU DON'T GET IT FROM THE START FOR FREE! You have to work to it first and then also build it!

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Honestly find it hilarious all those players stating ''if you think its an exploit, don't use it'' when clearly this is a place for feedback and new ideas. The condenser right now in his state is broken and its not just about getting all the ressources for free but HOW it impacts the core game. The game's goal is to MAKE YOU EXPLORE. If you have everything that you need at your base why would you explore the caves for rare ressources? Now the game is in pre-alpha so having this way to get ressources allows us to test the game which in my opinion is FINE because everyday u can have to restart ur whole save just cause of a bug. 

This mechanic is indeed some form of exploit that should be fixed in the near future to prevent the playerbase from just being able to convert POWER --> Ressource.

 

When you think about it, this game has some core mechanics that are inspired from real life. In what world can you create fuel out of thin air simply by using energy? In order to fix the condenser they just need to transform the Hydrazine that you collect on planets into an ''ore'' that you use the condenser to transform into Hydrazine. This would fix the entire problematic and allow us to transform Hydrazine Ore (or any other name) into Hydrazine a.k.a fuel using energy. So they should always follow a recipe of Ingredient + Power = Refined Product and never allow us to create something out of nothing but energy. In an advance base, energy comes at NO COST at all.

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1 hour ago, Darkfirephoenix said:

Ok guys to let me make something clear: This game gives your freedom to do what you want. Wanna go exploring for stuff? Fine, you can do it. Wanna build a base? You can do it. Want to have to mine for resources? You can do it. Wanna make fuel that just takes power and 2 researches beforehand so you can trade it for resources to be able to do other things? You can do it!

 

Atm this is a exploration/sandbox game with a good measure of freedom. If you take away the fuel trade then you jsut take away the freedom from the player.

You as the player NEVER really have to use fuel-condenser + trade post unless your planet doesn't have the resources you need.

YOU as the player DECIDE if you want to build and use those two buildings (that also require research beforehand), you DON'T HAVE TO use it.

 

"I don't like that there is a way to get endless resources via things I have to work towards! It is tempting me to use it! I don't like having a OPTION to make my life easier if I WANTED OT USE IT! Remove please!" Do you see your OWN problem? Do you really want a game that dictates YOU (as the player) HOW YOU HAVE to play the game?

 

Now regarding the "getting stuff from thin air": That is just partially true. That is how trade works! You have something someone else wants (fuel) and they are willing to trade with you for some other things. They want something (this is called demand) and you offer that something they want (this is called supply).

Now going after supply and demand:

Fuel is used for flight in space (in game) and as such is a always needed good. This drives the price up.

BUT it can be created via a machine + power by anyone/everywhere. This drives the price down by a lot.

Simply by going with supply/demand fuel should be commodity and have a rather low price, I would even go as far as to say that you would have to trade 8 fuel for 1 titanium (one of the most valuable resources you can buy atm).

 

Example: You go to a supermarket to buy food so you can eat. You COULD grow/hunt your own food which would cost you time/work BUT since you want to do something else than spending time growing/hunting you pay someone for the food they supply.

^THIS is the exact arguments you are using atm! You don't HAVE TO grow your own food but you COULD do it.

 

This whole fuel-condenser + trade post thing is more or less a calculation of initial investment and profit.

You build up a infrastructure (got the resources + research) so you can supply something you can trade with others. YOU DON'T GET IT FROM THE START FOR FREE! You have to work to it first and then also build it!

You failed completely to grasp the whole problematic with your attempt of a Supply/Demand analogy. Read my post above. The whole game is about exploration and the condenser + trade post defeats the WHOLE PURPOSE of exploring. The trade post works great rn as it allows u to convert on some planets ressources that u have in high quantity into something that you can't find on that planet. The condenser on the other end just allows you to convert POWER into a RESSOURCE which makes no sense. Aluminium requires Ore + Energy to convert and so does all metals. The simple solution is to require the same process for fuel and you fixed the entire issue. Gather Hydrazine ore or w.e you wanna name it and make that convert in the condenser into Fuel which eliminates the whole ''i can just stay at my base to do everything'' and forces u to explore to create fuel. Don't have any fuel ore on that planet or its rare? Trade it in. Simple as that.

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On 23/12/2016 at 4:12 PM, Freaky said:

You failed completely to grasp the whole problematic with your attempt of a Supply/Demand analogy. Read my post above. The whole game is about exploration and the condenser + trade post defeats the WHOLE PURPOSE of exploring. The trade post works great rn as it allows u to convert on some planets ressources that u have in high quantity into something that you can't find on that planet. The condenser on the other end just allows you to convert POWER into a RESSOURCE which makes no sense. Aluminium requires Ore + Energy to convert and so does all metals. The simple solution is to require the same process for fuel and you fixed the entire issue. Gather Hydrazine ore or w.e you wanna name it and make that convert in the condenser into Fuel which eliminates the whole ''i can just stay at my base to do everything'' and forces u to explore to create fuel. Don't have any fuel ore on that planet or its rare? Trade it in. Simple as that.

It's interesting that you object to people trading fuel made in the condenser, but you don't object to people buying it using the trader, using free resources gathered from the many tree fruits.   Your idea of free.. has room for argument.   Pushing a button costs time, making fuel costs time, getting fruits costs time.  Now as a result the "exploiters" are just making more condensers and people like me who only make one condenser have to stand twice as long to get fuel.

So essentially, the fuel nerf hasn't affected people who just want to stand there and it has punished all the people who don't.  Good job on raising your feedback.

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50 minutes ago, Martin said:

It's interesting that you object to people trading fuel made in the condenser, but you don't object to people buying it using the trader, using free resources gathered from the many tree fruits.   Your idea of free.. has room for argument.   Pushing a button costs time, making fuel costs time, getting fruits costs time.  Now as a result the "exploiters" are just making more condensers and people like me who only make one condenser have to stand twice as long to get fuel.

So essentially, the fuel nerf hasn't affected people who just want to stand there and it has punished all the people who don't.  Good job on raising your feedback.

Boohoo, now at this point im gonna consider you a troll. Obviously you have nothing better to do then look at my post history and quote w.e I say and attempt to object on it. Its almost like you just sit on forums instead of actually playing the game W.e you said made zero sense. Maybe you should try to read sometimes and  comprehend that the suggestion I made will not only benefit yourself who apparently is an exemplary player who will never abuse an exploit and will also help the ppl that feel like its a cheap exploit that goes against the whole point of the game which is exploration. My idea of ''free'' is what will make this game either an exploration game or a sit and press a button game. Not sure what you're talking about your fruits but considering how delusionnal u've been im not even surprised.

Edited by Freaky

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Look, people, yes you can exploit it. But if you like adventuring, why would you even bother? I don't. I go on adventures and find research pods and discover things. There is always the possibility to grind with the fuel condensers but in my opinion it is no fun. I think that this discussion has gone far enough. The devs have almost definitely seen this and at this point it is just people arguing. So until they fix it, which they most likely will in the near future because of all the uproar, just sit tight and have fun with the game as it is.

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On 12/23/2016 at 4:58 PM, Freaky said:

[...] The condenser right now in his state is broken and its not just about getting all the resources for free but HOW it impacts the core game. The game's goal is to MAKE YOU EXPLORE. If you have everything that you need at your base why would you explore the caves for rare resources? [...] So they should always follow a recipe of Ingredient + Power = Refined Product and never allow us to create something out of nothing but energy. In an advance base, energy comes at NO COST at all.

 

On 12/23/2016 at 5:12 PM, Freaky said:

[...] The whole game is about exploration and the condenser + trade post defeats the WHOLE PURPOSE of exploring. The trade post works great as it allows u to convert on some planets resources that u have in high quantity into something that you can't find on that planet. The condenser on the other end just allows you to convert POWER into a RESOURCE which makes no sense. [...] The simple solution is to require the same process for fuel and you fixed the entire issue. 

I fully agree ! It's like merging to different gameplay. Creating fuel so easily without using the core mechanic (if you exclude the initial exploration/gathering to make the fuel condenser itself) feels out of place. Sure, you could say it's not really free because you spend time for preliminary steps where you have to explore, but once you have it, you basically have a new "hybrid" gameplay mode. I'm not a game creator but that feels not right and there is nothing wrong to point it out as well not agreeing with. I know the game is in early alpha, so there will surely be changes, but dismissing even the simple observation of that is really strange.

You just have to look at what the devs of The Long Dark have made. It is in a much more advanced state of development of course but it is basically a man vs nature sandbox like Astroneer, except on earth. They now have multiple game modes with specific gameplay balancing, from the easiest mode where you have unlimited resources and no threatening wild life, just to easily test the game, to the hardest mode with extremely limited resources, with no respawn at all, and extremely starving and dangerous wild life. So yes, it is obviously important to finely balance the gameplay modes and not mixing them together.

The devs of Astroneer are perfectly capable of making different game modes as well if they want to, later in the development of their game. Or even giving gameplay related options before starting a game. If the actual state of the condenser mechanic is what they want it to be, fine. But we are also here to give them our ideas and observations when we feel there is something wrong, being for good or bad reasons, and indirectly discuss those with them. Isn't that also one of the goal of an early alpha release ? I don't know why that would be something bad... 

Besides, patch note of Dec. 22 : "Fix exploit allowing player to trade for infinite resources by thieving the item like a pirate while launching". So, I would logically think that, for a given core gameplay mechanic - exploration/gathering for Astroneer - infinite resources is an exploit. Unless you say that it isn't because thieving the item is a "time cost mechanic" just like standing in front of the condenser and pushing the button... It's silly.  Anyways, that passionate conversation about an... exploit, just prove how people care about and how lovable Astroneer is as a game. 

P.S.: English is not my native English, so my writing may not be the best !

 

Edited by Dave_Ant

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On 12/17/2016 at 4:41 PM, Daroguetoaster said:

The fuel condenser can be unfortunately exploited easily to get any resource you want. With just being able to convert energy into free fuel, you can gather these with no effort at all on a sunny day, and use the trade platform endlessly to get resources for free. I propose that the fuel crystals you mine be raw, like copper and aluminum, and the fuel condenser converts them into the liquid fuel. Maybe even add a production cost of a compound to make the container for the fuel during the process. This would eliminate this exploitation and add a bit more depth to fuel harvesting.

This is perfect. Trading eliminates the need for space travel and exploration.

 

 

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