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"So don't use it' is a stupid response that is totally ignorant of the crux of the actual problem.

That this game isn't competitive doesn't matter whatsoever. It's not about being "overpowered" or having "self-control." 'Doing whatever you want' makes this not a game but a simulation without the rewards of playing towards a goal.

You're an astronaut that has various survival needs on an unexplored planet. You have to interact with various unknown mechanics in order to acquire resources to advance your base and increase your capabilities. The game is about problem solving - being logical, assessing risk and reward, and making intelligent decisions. The incentive of the game is providing complex problems in a maze that you navigate, and are rewarded for being smart.

If you have in your base a magic box which when you open it has everything you could ever want... logically, reasonably, what use is there for taking a risk on your life for the chance of something that might not be what you want? The risk isn't worth it, logically. And because this magic box exists, you could still go out on expedition to find something, but you would know the whole time that there is the guarantee of what you need back home. It cheapens the experience, and sours the reward of exploration. We're not talking about enabling a console and typing in a code command to grant everything you desire. We're talking about an in-game mechanic that changes the game mode from survival to creative.

No one is forcing anyone else to play the game their way here. There is a huge draw of a creative mode and what fun you can have with it. But that kind of fun is entirely separate from the fun of survival and the rewards of venturing into the unknown. There is every reason for a creative mode to exist, as well as every reason for a survival mode - but they should absolutely not be one and the same mode. Infinite resources should not be made available to the player in-game in the current Astroneer regular play.

Look at it this way. When you buy a Lego set, there is fun in making something out of the range of pieces that come in the box. There is also a different fun in playing with Legos without any restrictions on resources. But those are two different things - making the best out of limited resources, or making whatever you want out of unlimited resources. They are not the same thing.

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The way I see it, there could be a simple fix to this. They could add a flag to hydrazine that is created from the fuel condensers which simply states it was crafted rather than harvested from the world. If that flag is in place they could set the item's rarity so low that it wouldn't have any trade value.

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22 hours ago, Daroguetoaster said:

The fuel condenser can be unfortunately exploited easily to get any resource you want. With just being able to convert energy into free fuel, you can gather these with no effort at all on a sunny day, and use the trade platform endlessly to get resources for free. I propose that the fuel crystals you mine be raw, like copper and aluminum, and the fuel condenser converts them into the liquid fuel. Maybe even add a production cost of a compound to make the container for the fuel during the process. This would eliminate this exploitation and add a bit more depth to fuel harvesting.

I completely agree with the it being like the smelter, require the crystal then turning it into fuel - in short that would bring balance. 

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2 minutes ago, Jukesster said:

I completely agree with the it being like the smelter, require the crystal then turning it into fuel - in short that would bring balance. 

Yeah! Or if people are completely turned off by that idea, just make the actual creation process slower. It would still be free from using just energy, but if it took say a solid minute or two to make a single fuel can, it would deter people from sitting there farming it.

Edited by Daroguetoaster
Typo*

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31 minutes ago, Mr Guy said:

The way I see it, there could be a simple fix to this. They could add a flag to hydrazine that is created from the fuel condensers which simply states it was crafted rather than harvested from the world. If that flag is in place they could set the item's rarity so low that it wouldn't have any trade value.

 

This is also a really great and easy way to amend the process!

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If they simply made the process take longer, people would do an initial trade for a couple of copper to make another condenser and then simple ramp up energy production/storage (which isn't hard to do with the amount of lithium we get, an item that has only a couple usages. Also if you're anywhere near grasses or bushes you have all the power you need just from organics) to further exploit it.

Changes that are just like 'oh just make it take longer' rarely ever fix the root of the problem, which to me is the fact that the hydrazine is coming out of nowhere when there is already a perfectly reasonable and balanced source of it in caves.

It's funny to me how the same people that are arguing 'just don't use it' are the same people arguing 'this game is about exploration not resource gathering/management'.

Because nothing screams exploration like pressing a button and standing there waiting for something to appear out of nowhere, then pressing another button and standing there waiting for ANYTHING YOU WANT to come flying out of the heavens xD 

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The thing is, though, that plants are limited and you will run out of them if you use a lot. Which is why farming would be cool, where you could perhaps grow corn or something and process it into ethanol, which is realistic because they do that in real life.

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Yeah exactly. You WILL run out of them if you use a lot. That's what resource management is all about. You'd have to either not over-consume the plant life so it can grow back and propagate OR simply just ignore the finiteness of organics and exploit the area around you, forcing you to expand your plant gathering radius wider as entire species of plants die out due to your clear cutting methods.

This is exactly how things would work in real life and while the developers don't want to focus too much on making everything 100% scientifically accurate i can assure you that this kind of mechanic transfers to video games pretty well. Take Minecraft for example, you can clear cut a forest but then you have to venture out further if you want wood unless you replant the saplings you gather from the trees.

Good idea about the farming as well, there could be a biofarm building that you plant plants into and they spread out, the excess plant matter being made into organics at a slow gradual rate (increased slightly by both sunlight and rainfall).

Or in super early game, you could plant seeds that you find while sucking up organics (a single seed would take up one slot in your backpack but sucking up more seeds would add them to that slot just like how tethers work when placing them or taking them back) and plant them where ever you would like to grow plants and over time they would start to grow and spread grasses and bushes etc. again.

You could even make it so that flora research objects can be planted in the ground and then spray soil and water on them to plant them into big trees/alien plants :D

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15 hours ago, bananatrooper52 said:

 

I recommend that it should require organic or maybe plants that you've killed, which it then processes into fuel.

 

I brought this idea on another topic, but I'm going to copy my idea here so we can discuss it better and put those things on fuel together.

"

 What do you guys think if there was a construction that would turn organic things into biofuels? Because it's really easy to take the hydrazine using the construction that I don't remember the name and if they put this biodome they can remove the hydrazine extractor, the hydrazine would continue but the only way to get would be farming and after that put the ore into a construction which turns this into fuel. The Hydrazine ore could be something rare but it would fill more fuel tank than biofuel, maybe two biofuels would be the equivalent of a hydrozine.

What do you guys think about it?"

On that topic(http://forum.systemera.net/topic/931-plants-and-farming/) we were talking about have crop fields and something like a bio-dome that could generet organic material to be use on the generator or in the Biofuel Generator.

About the Trade Platform, energy isn't a problem and put a constraint as "the fuel condenser can't be used during the day" don't make sense at all. I don't think that raise the time that you need to wait to have your resources will be a solution, for me, makes that the Trade Platform needs fuel is a better solution.

 

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On 12/17/2016 at 5:41 PM, Daroguetoaster said:

The fuel condenser can be unfortunately exploited easily to get any resource you want. With just being able to convert energy into free fuel, you can gather these with no effort at all on a sunny day, and use the trade platform endlessly to get resources for free. I propose that the fuel crystals you mine be raw, like copper and aluminum, and the fuel condenser converts them into the liquid fuel. Maybe even add a production cost of a compound to make the container for the fuel during the process. This would eliminate this exploitation and add a bit more depth to fuel harvesting.

I'd love to see the fuel condenser needing the hydrazine crystal in conjunction with the organic to create fuel for use in the ship; as it is now it is meant to be extracting the fuel from the water in the air (iirc). Something that needs a tiny bit more investment and work from the player to launch the rocket. :) As it is now, it feels a little bit underwhelming and even tedious to even have the fuel condenser.

I think the generator (small) should also be able to burn the fuel for a greater overall energy yield, as a second tier to the organic, allowing for a basic and more advanced energy source.

I do realise there are plenty of features in the game that are omitted from/not available in this early-access release that may already be in the pipeline. Some features have been cut and/or simplified for this release so as to ensure a well rounded functioning product. Something more complicated may already exist, that we do not even know about.

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16 hours ago, Mr Guy said:

The way I see it, there could be a simple fix to this. They could add a flag to hydrazine that is created from the fuel condensers which simply states it was crafted rather than harvested from the world. If that flag is in place they could set the item's rarity so low that it wouldn't have any trade value.

Then also make it so the fuel created by the Fuel Condenser is a different shade of purple OR since it's made of Power, a cylinder of Yellow and has a Value of Zero (Ever try trading a harvested Power module, ZERO value. But it'll still add the same amount of fuel to a Shuttle or Spaceship. And if the Trading Post should require fuel it can use either.

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On 18/12/2016 at 1:41 AM, Daroguetoaster said:

The fuel condenser can be unfortunately exploited easily to get any resource you want. With just being able to convert energy into free fuel, you can gather these with no effort at all on a sunny day, and use the trade platform endlessly to get resources for free. I propose that the fuel crystals you mine be raw, like copper and aluminum, and the fuel condenser converts them into the liquid fuel. Maybe even add a production cost of a compound to make the container for the fuel during the process. This would eliminate this exploitation and add a bit more depth to fuel harvesting.

You are right. This might be the solution; Increase the time it takes the converte power into fuel, and then add the feature that the crystal could speed up the process. People need a reason to explore. Allways. Make em go out and explore/collect and create. 

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18 hours ago, biyabo said:

"So don't use it' is a stupid response that is totally ignorant of the crux of the actual problem.

That this game isn't competitive doesn't matter whatsoever. It's not about being "overpowered" or having "self-control." 'Doing whatever you want' makes this not a game but a simulation without the rewards of playing towards a goal.

You're an astronaut that has various survival needs on an unexplored planet. You have to interact with various unknown mechanics in order to acquire resources to advance your base and increase your capabilities. The game is about problem solving - being logical, assessing risk and reward, and making intelligent decisions. The incentive of the game is providing complex problems in a maze that you navigate, and are rewarded for being smart.

If you have in your base a magic box which when you open it has everything you could ever want... logically, reasonably, what use is there for taking a risk on your life for the chance of something that might not be what you want? The risk isn't worth it, logically. And because this magic box exists, you could still go out on expedition to find something, but you would know the whole time that there is the guarantee of what you need back home. It cheapens the experience, and sours the reward of exploration. We're not talking about enabling a console and typing in a code command to grant everything you desire. We're talking about an in-game mechanic that changes the game mode from survival to creative.

No one is forcing anyone else to play the game their way here. There is a huge draw of a creative mode and what fun you can have with it. But that kind of fun is entirely separate from the fun of survival and the rewards of venturing into the unknown. There is every reason for a creative mode to exist, as well as every reason for a survival mode - but they should absolutely not be one and the same mode. Infinite resources should not be made available to the player in-game in the current Astroneer regular play.

Look at it this way. When you buy a Lego set, there is fun in making something out of the range of pieces that come in the box. There is also a different fun in playing with Legos without any restrictions on resources. But those are two different things - making the best out of limited resources, or making whatever you want out of unlimited resources. They are not the same thing.

This is spot on, exploration without reward is the worst. 

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Yeah there are plenty of tweaks for balancing the fuel condenser and trade platform.

  1. Make fuel worth allot less in trade. Example make it take 8 fuel for 1 resin.
  2. Make condensing fuel take more time to complete.  Currently it takes what.... 5 seconds? 
  3. Make condensing fuel take much more energy.
  4. Change how long it takes to trade.
  5. Have a dynamic economic market.  Aka, price fluctuations.  If you sell a bunch of fuel, it will depress its value, until you can't trade it for anything.  (Until the market recovers after a set period of time... like an hour or something)
  6. Disable fuel trade.
  7. Make trade take power.  (This is part of the make trading take more time)
  8. etc.

There are plenty of methods for balancing fuel condenser use and trade platforms.

Don't forget, if you do like grinding... you could always... not use them.  Which would let people who do like using them... to use them.

 

Edited by Twilight Sparkle

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What about a finite resource system is 'grinding' ? Navigating the planet and gathering resources couldn't be easier in this game.

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14 minutes ago, Nafen said:

What about a finite resource system is 'grinding' ? Navigating the planet and gathering resources couldn't be easier in this game.

So why is one way of resource gathering any better or worse? It's a sandbox. Let people do what they want.

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Without necessarily speaking to the problem itself, I do want to point out that there is more than one kind of exploration in gameplay:

  1. The kind mainly talked about in this thread: Exploring the planet's surface and tunnels, risking life and limb to gather precious resources, and
  2. Exploring the game mechanic itself, seeing what all the pieces are and how they work.

One place where Minecraft fell down for people that are more interested in the second kind of exploration (at least on PC), was the completely hard schism between creative and survival modes; it'd be much better to allow switching freely between these modes in a single game, making creative mode more of a "cheat" mode where you can more freely set things up to explore the game mechanic than explore the planet's caves.

In this sort of mode-of-design, pure survivalists can have the option of never entering creative mode (and maybe even get achievements for successes when doing so), and pure creative types can have a game devoid of danger and adventure to build whatever they want—but for those of us in-between, we have the option of exploring both without any affect on anyone else.

This also has the side benefit that those of use with less times on our hands can give ourselves a bit of a boost through the survival game to keep things moving, while those with lots of time can still play the properly balanced survival mode.

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It could be a simple solution.

Why not to create three levels of difficulty?

1. Easy (builders & explorers) and this, called by some of you "exploit" could be available all the time.

2. Normal - trade could be more difficult, cost could be increased, for example four can of fuel will deliver one compound or any future common resource. Four common resources will give one piece of uncommon resource etc.

3. Survival - trade will be permanently lock, or could be unlocked in certain condition. For example mix two cans of fuel and two rare resources.

Some people prefers really challenging games, some prefers balanced games, some easy games, using cheats. Give a choice for everyone.

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On 18/12/2016 at 2:57 AM, Daroguetoaster said:

Being able to build that single unit, and never having to mine ever again seems like an exploit to me.  

Don't use it in this way and your problem is solved.  What other people do in their games in none of your business.  Nor should it be.  I agree that it could have added depth to it, the idea of harvesting hydrazine crystals and then using the condenser to turn them into fuel is a nice change and more fitting with the game, than to just turn air into fuel.

But people need to get away from this idea of what is an exploitable thing and what isn't.  This isn't a pvp based mmo, where exploits matter.  It can be exploited.. but so can solars, wind turbines, 1 resin bases, vehicles and so on.. maybe ban multiplayer because having extra people is also an exploit.. it gives an unfair advantage over single players.

The argument never ends.   So it's pointless even starting it.

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On 18/12/2016 at 10:41 PM, biyabo said:

"So don't use it' is a stupid response that is totally ignorant of the crux of the actual problem.

That this game isn't competitive doesn't matter whatsoever. It's not about being "overpowered" or having "self-control." 'Doing whatever you want' makes this not a game but a simulation without the rewards of playing towards a goal.

 

 

It has everything to do with it.  Not using it is not a stupid responce, it's common sence.  You don't get the right to decide how everyone else plays in a single player game, you get to decide only how you play.  If you think you're exploiting the game, then stop.  How hard is that??

Competition isn't necessarily against other players.  But people have the right to enjoy their games as they see fit. Or as developers see fit.  Remembering of course.. that if the devs make the mistake of removing any and all possible exploits from a game, they actually also remove a big chunk of fun and tactics and this in turn, turns people away from buying their games.   It's the main reason I've stopped buying alot of peoples games, like blizzard, ea, rockstar etc.. They are just clones, not fun.

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I totally agree that it needs to be reworked. rather than just building the single unit out of 2 resource, maybe have multiple parts to research for advanced stations? Some parts could be used for multiple stations and some parts would be station specific? But, from what I have been getting from other forums and game reviews is that they are planning on having more planets and maybe even solar systems to choose from? SO, with only some planets having certain resources, I don't think the fuel condenser is a bad idea. They should take out being able to trade fuel once you have a condenser built, or seriously up the amount at a time you need to be able to trade, on top of making the actual condenser harder to build. As far as more planets/systems, I'm not sure if this is true but I would imaging further down the line this is something the developers would want or maybe need to consider. The developers have killed it so far and are just ironing out simple mechanics for now, but an expansion will be needed with only 5 planets to go about exploring, plus with an increased player count like they plan on doing, there will need to be more options for people to consider. And with this said 'exploit', as long as you are standing there doing it, you are taking away from the actual gameplay. So that is on you if you want to spam fuel, or go out and see all the wicked cool scenery and exploration opportunities.

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10 hours ago, Nasedo said:

It could be a simple solution.

Why not to create three levels of difficulty?

1. Easy (builders & explorers) and this, called by some of you "exploit" could be available all the time.

2. Normal - trade could be more difficult, cost could be increased, for example four can of fuel will deliver one compound or any future common resource. Four common resources will give one piece of uncommon resource etc.

3. Survival - trade will be permanently lock, or could be unlocked in certain condition. For example mix two cans of fuel and two rare resources.

Some people prefers really challenging games, some prefers balanced games, some easy games, using cheats. Give a choice for everyone.

I gave my idea, which could satisfy all of you. But, for now, please don't forget about something really important:

1. This game is still early alpha. Hopefully lot of changes will be made till final version will be released.

2. "Exploit opportunities" are implemented in games like "No Man's Sky", "Subnautica" - players can decide how they would like to play. Need a challenge? Pick one option. Need a balanced game, pick another option. Just exploring, pick third option - changed mind - start new game with different difficulty level.

3. Almost all games having cheats / trainers, some players complaining about this as well. Don't forget it's up to us - PLAYERS, GAMERS - how we playing. This type of game should deliver a FREEDOM. Let's try imagine this situation: " I decide to build four vehicles, using tethers I prepared racing zone. I don't care about mining, I don't care about exploring - I would like to have some fun with my friends and we will be racing." Should it be forbidden? Players should be banned, because they doing what they want to do it?

4. I could say from my experience, already all blueprints been found (including crane, drill, winch). I spent about 25 hours with this game and the question you may ask: "What to do now?" is there any purpose for me going underground, why should I digging - the answer is simple - I can finish my game for now, I could explore for the pleasure, I could go somewhere else and start build new base. Why to decide for all of us?

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this is a conspiracy from the DEVS :D they want us to stay inside the base ... and not notice the FPS DROP that occurs when you explore :D

 

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I think the biggest problem isn't that the exploit exists, it's that it currently becomes possible too early in the game. I, for one, would greatly enjoy being able to build a largely self-sustaining base in the 'endgame,' but right now it comes way too quickly. Of course, in such an early stage of development there isn't really "endgame" content yet, but as it begins to take shape there are a few possible solutions:

  1. Make the Fuel Condenser more of an endgame item.
  2. Make the Trade Platform more of an endgame item.
  3. Limit trades on the Trade Platform somehow.

Of these possibilities, some form of option 3 would be my preference: perhaps the Trade Platform vessel would need to be upgraded with attachments to allow certain items to be bought or sold, or affect 'prices'.

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