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The fuel condenser can be unfortunately exploited easily to get any resource you want. With just being able to convert energy into free fuel, you can gather these with no effort at all on a sunny day, and use the trade platform endlessly to get resources for free. I propose that the fuel crystals you mine be raw, like copper and aluminum, and the fuel condenser converts them into the liquid fuel. Maybe even add a production cost of a compound to make the container for the fuel during the process. This would eliminate this exploitation and add a bit more depth to fuel harvesting.

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It is, it is very very overpowered and I think they put it like that so that people can quickly test different parts of the game by getting the required resources faster. 

But for me, although I'm not the most skilled of gamers (as far as I remember I've never beaten any of those 'hardcore challenges' in games and such) but I do love a really good challenge.

As soon as you get the fuel condenser and trade depot set up that's it. There is no challenge. There's no limit to the amount of ANY resource you can acquire through just clicking a button and waiting fuel to come out of nowhere then a trade ship to fly up and come down with whatever you wanted but couldn't be bothered to go and explore and find anymore. That's it, the game is over (in my opinion of course).

I partially agree with your suggestion Darogue but I think that the fuel condenser should NEVER be able to make Hydrazine (yes, there, I said it.) Rather, it still has the same functionality of using energy to fill a tank (maybe using Compound to make the tank like you said, or possibly another use for Titanium) of fuel, but it would be an inferior form of fuel that wouldn't be worth nearly as much on the Trade market and also wouldn't fill a Shuttle or Spaceship's capacity as much as putting a tank of Hydrazine in it. Hydrazine would still be found in deposits underground and then maybe you could either 'smelt' the crystals/ore/whatever of it to go into a tank (again using compound or titanium or whatever :D ) or just place them in the Fuel Condenser storage and have a recipe selection like when choosing buildings or on the printer and vehicle bay to choose which type of fuel to make.

Then you could have something like:

  1. No input items in the recipe = Creates very little fuel, need to do it multiple times to fill a 'tank''s worth of something along the lines of liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen, costs the full amount of energy like the current hydrazine process but takes a fairly longer time than the current hydrazine process (something to 'fire and forget' before you head off exploring or spelunking as this is basically getting something (although very little) out of nothing process which SHOULD be boring and tiring to sit there and repeat the process instead of starting it up and then going and actually playing, maybe deterring players from relying on this so much. Although, the actual yield COULD depend on the atmosphere (if any) of the planet you're on, with a dense atmosphere allowing a full fuel tank to be filled with just 3 or 4 of this process, but if the atmosphere is a lot thinner it could take 5 or 6 times to fill a tank. Likewise, the process becoming entirely impossible if you land on a harder planet with no atmosphere or maybe in the future choose to start on a harder planet would make for a fun limitation challenge, having to use actual resources to make fuel.) This fuel would be equal to resin and compound on the trade market (as it stands today, although the trade system could be changed also ;) ) and one full tank (ITEM, not full shuttle or spaceship tank) of this fuel would allow the player to launch their craft into orbit, check out the solar system 'map' but the radius of travel would be non existent (that is to say, you wouldn't be able to fly to the moon or another planet just from one tank of this fuel) but you'd be able to either land back down at your vehicle bay (after having a nice look at your solar system and getting super excited to go to new worlds! but then..seeing the 'not enough fuel!' messages and realise your mistake) or pick a new landing spot and start a new base of operations elsewhere on the planet!
  2. Organics recipe = Brings up 4 input slots like the smelter and allows you to condense up to 4 organics at once into biofuel, 4 organics would fill half a tank of biofuel so the process would have to be repeated twice to get a full tank of biofuel, the process would be around the same length of time as the current hydrazine process or maybe slightly faster but would only take about 75% of the condenser's energy reserve to start it. The yield of this fuel could actually depend on certain things like the temperature of the planet, since it wouldn't take as long for dead plant matter to ferment or whatever if it was on a very hot planet, but a very cold planet might be near impossible to create the biofuel so this process would require more energy to artifically heat things up. The fuel itself would allow a player to land on their planets' moon if they have one with just one tank item of fuel used, but possibly not be able to launch again if they only put one tank of fuel into their shuttle's tank :P this would teach players to prepare properly! But also this could be alleviated if the space travel had a sort of 'route planner' where it would show you the fuel usage of each step of the journey, so you could for example click your moon then click on your planet again and it would show the fuel usage of that complete trip, with a green ✔ if you have enough fuel to make the trip or a red  ✘ if you would not have enough fuel to get there and back. You could also plan more complex routes (do i have enough fuel to reach this planet and then slingshot to a further planet, then repeat the same process to get back home if the expedition ends up FUBAR?)
  3. Coal recipe = As far as I'm aware, Coal is one of the rarest resources (I think it's the second rarest currently?) But in my eyes, it should be as common as Hydrazine is now and Hydrazine should take the place of Coal as a rare but rewarding fuel source. I still haven't personally found any coal at all but one of my co-op friends did, but we didn't use it yet. I'm guessing that it just makes a decent amount of energy from burning it in the Big Generator, but to me this seems like it could be a secondary use, as you seem to get plenty of energy from solar, wind, burned Organics, energy 'crystals' in the ground as well as energy resource 'nodes' (am i forgetting something? :P), so Coal could also be useful for making fuel for space expeditions. A couple of coal would condense into a tank's worth of a decent fuel, maybe something like Kerosene. Meaning that filling up all 4 input slots with coal would allow you to make two whole tanks items of fuel with one process, the process would take just as long as the current Hydrazine process but take only half of the Condenser's energy reserve , this would make it the 'standard' fuel source when getting into mid-game, as it would be a lot more profitable to mine coal than to dig up lots of plants or use up lots of time to creating biofuel or fuel outta nothing :P The travel distance you could get from one tank of Kerosene could be getting to a moon (if your 'home planet' has one) and back, or getting to the closest planet but not quite having enough fuel to make it back to the 'home' planet, although you'd be able to get back to your moon if you have one. This would allow accident-prone players to at least get back closer to home if they make the mistake of travelling to a more hostile planet while not completely prepared for it, making it even more rewarding to use the coal as fuel as its the difference of struggling to find enough resources to make another Fuel condenser on a more hostile planet (think, if the earth or even rock is hard or impossible to mine and you have to find surface caves to get to where it's soft enough to dig resources) or on a moon that is closer to your 'home planet' and so slightly more hospitable (the rock here is kind of soft...almost like cheese. some astroneers even say you could eat it as a last resort!)
  4. Hydrazine. Hydrazine. The wonder fuel. The super rare (or it should be) wonder fuel. One 'crystal' (ore?) of this will fill a tank of fuel just like that. Requiring only a quarter of the Condenser's energy reserve and taking up roughly half the time as the current Hydrazine process. Moreover, if you got lucky enough to salvage FOUR item's worth of crystal/ore from the rare deposit you find, you can condense them all at once to get FOUR whole tanks of super fuel! This will make exploring deep caves a massive reward for the risk of falling hazards, maybe more hazardous plant/animal life and possibly even LAVA (is it lava above ground or magma? Or is magma the surface one, I never remember.) Oh and how far can you get on one tank of this wonder fuel you ask? Throw a dart at the star chart and my friend you'll be there in a jiffy. Although you might not be able to get ALLLL the way back on just the one tank item's worth of fuel. I mean, it IS a wonderous magical fuel of magic...but it's not ACTUALLY magic, right? Preparedness is key!

It's done, sorry if I missed anything ;) 

Convoluted suggestions and ramblings aside, you could argue that using this fuel condenser/trade depot combo is a CHOICE, and since it's merely a gameplay CHOICE you could just CHOOSE to not use it if it's so much of an exploit but to that I say pish, I may as well do something crazy like start a 'no tether' run. It's one extreme or the other, using tethers is a choice but it's quite a smart choice and the mechanic of using tethers to expand my oxygen and energy line doesn't make me feel dirty.

Making Hydrazine out of nothing, when there's a reasonably 'gamey' way of exploring and gathering it, makes me feel dirty.

Oh and I wrote the end of this post wayyyyy before I started adding the creamy center, sorry D:  

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Nice! I like a lot of your ideas. From a pre-alpha game's stand point, having that there to easily test out stuff makes a lot of sense. As far as down the line goes, it definitely needs to be reworked, or just made less efficient to lower its power.

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Yeah, I really hope that they did it for that reason so people could test different parts of the game quicker and not because they thought it was a really balanced mechanic xD 

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There's already a thread about this.

The discussion boils down to:

A) You don't have to use it if you don't want to. This isn't a competitive game.

B) Some planets simply don't have certain types of materials. Arid planets don't have Resin/Compound. It makes it impossible to build without ferrying things back and forth with a shuttle or spacecraft. 

C) The goal of the game isn't resource gathering. It's exploring. Being able to get 'infinite' resources with input of time and player effort doesn't detract from exploration.

D) Stop trying to decide how other people get to play the game.

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A) You don't have to play creative mode if you don't have to. But creative mode IS the cup of tea for some people, which they're welcome to. I however do not welcome a creative mode-esque feature such as infinite resources at the click of a button and a short waiting time.

B) If you already have the knowledge that a certain planet doesn't have a certain resource, it should clue you in to make sure you set off with plenty of that resource in your pack or simply don't expect to build up a huge base there. A problem in the game can have solutions other than 'ok give me the stuff now'

C) The goal of the game is whatever you want it to be. If you want to explore free from the leashes of survival mechanics or finite resources I'm sure there will be the creative suite ;) 

D) Isn't that what you just tried to do by dictating what the goal of the game is?

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I think the best quick solution would be making fuel one of the worst resources to use in the trade platform, a horrible return on resources. That way if you are stuck on a planet and NEED resources, you can still abuse it, but have it be a waste of time compared to exploring. I agree right now, it's the most efficient way to gather resources, which is silly. 

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I would go with:

  1. Increase the power usage and/or
  2. Increase the production-time

A reduction of value could also work (or all of em).

BUT you should still be able to buy at least 1 piece of the most expensive material even if you have to send 8 pieces of fuel.

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The combination of Trade Platform / Fuel Condenser quickly changes the game from a survival mode to a god mode game - psychologically, there is removed incentive towards exploring and mining new materials if everything can be created in-base. What need is there to explore new caves, areas, and planets, if you can have all the resources at home? (Yes, I understand you can for fun, but in my opinion building is much more rewarding in a 'survival mode' than a 'creative mode' and the enjoyment of these activities is reduced if infinite resources are made available in the very same game mode). It's not good for the current system to exist without harder time and resource constraints.

The Trade Platform should definitely cost Energy - the same amount as Fuel Condenser. Secondly, I feel there should be an increased time before return, proportionate to the amount and  rarity of materials returned. Instead of waiting 1 minute for any return, it should be something like this: 15 seconds wait per common resource (2 minutes for 8 Compound, etc), 30 seconds per uncommon (4 minutes for 8 Ore), and 45 seconds per rare (6 minutes for 8 Titanium, etc). Dramatically increasing the return time means it would take significantly longer for a player to establish a continuous infinite supply of any resource from the Trade Platform.

In order to demonstrate the time to return, the developers could implement a simple visual of a pie graph shrinking, one pie per minute.

Secondly, the Fuel Condenser can be limited by only allowing it to operate during the day. Its Energy requirement could be reduced if need, but cutting its uptime in half also helps to significantly hinder progress towards an infinite resource loop.

As a side note, it would be nice if the Fuel Condenser had some function to keep producing Fuel until its storage slots are full. Having to press the button every minute or so is tedious, and if these 'nerf's to the two workstations are implemented then I think an automatic function would be okay to have.

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8 hours ago, Nafen said:

A) You don't have to play creative mode if you don't have to. But creative mode IS the cup of tea for some people, which they're welcome to. I however do not welcome a creative mode-esque feature such as infinite resources at the click of a button and a short waiting time.

B) If you already have the knowledge that a certain planet doesn't have a certain resource, it should clue you in to make sure you set off with plenty of that resource in your pack or simply don't expect to build up a huge base there. A problem in the game can have solutions other than 'ok give me the stuff now'

C) The goal of the game is whatever you want it to be. If you want to explore free from the leashes of survival mechanics or finite resources I'm sure there will be the creative suite ;) 

D) Isn't that what you just tried to do by dictating what the goal of the game is?

 

So don't use it.

I just solved all of your problems.

7 hours ago, biyabo said:

The combination of Trade Platform / Fuel Condenser quickly changes the game from a survival mode to a god mode game - psychologically, there is removed incentive towards exploring and mining new materials if everything can be created in-base. What need is there to explore new caves, areas, and planets, if you can have all the resources at home? (Yes, I understand you can for fun, but in my opinion building is much more rewarding in a 'survival mode' than a 'creative mode' and the enjoyment of these activities is reduced if infinite resources are made available in the very same game mode). It's not good for the current system to exist without harder time and resource constraints.

The Trade Platform should definitely cost Energy - the same amount as Fuel Condenser. Secondly, I feel there should be an increased time before return, proportionate to the amount and  rarity of materials returned. Instead of waiting 1 minute for any return, it should be something like this: 15 seconds wait per common resource (2 minutes for 8 Compound, etc), 30 seconds per uncommon (4 minutes for 8 Ore), and 45 seconds per rare (6 minutes for 8 Titanium, etc). Dramatically increasing the return time means it would take significantly longer for a player to establish a continuous infinite supply of any resource from the Trade Platform.

In order to demonstrate the time to return, the developers could implement a simple visual of a pie graph shrinking, one pie per minute.

Secondly, the Fuel Condenser can be limited by only allowing it to operate during the day. Its Energy requirement could be reduced if need, but cutting its uptime in half also helps to significantly hinder progress towards an infinite resource loop.

As a side note, it would be nice if the Fuel Condenser had some function to keep producing Fuel until its storage slots are full. Having to press the button every minute or so is tedious, and if these 'nerf's to the two workstations are implemented then I think an automatic function would be okay to have.

 

Don't use the fuel condenser then.

Look, I just solved all of your problems.

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Also don't use god mode or no clip. Could do, but better yet they not be so easily accesible (else creative mode)

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24 minutes ago, Nafen said:

Also don't use god mode or no clip. Could do, but better yet they not be so easily accesible (else creative mode)

Or you could have some self control maybe?

Just a thought, you know.

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I understand the whole "Then don't use it" mentality, but this is for the sake of the end game as a product. I as well as others feel like it is too strong and breaks the survival nature of the game.

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1 minute ago, Daroguetoaster said:

I understand the whole "Then don't use it" mentality, but this is for the sake of the end game as a product. I as well as others feel like it is too strong and breaks the survival nature of the game.

Well, being that it isn't a survival game the argument more or less goes invalid. It's about exploration and "finding-your-own-way-guru-shit". Even though i completely agree it's overpowered and takes a considerable amount away from the survival aspect of the game. The survival aspect of the game is not the main aspect.

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1 minute ago, WestNomad said:

Well, being that it isn't a survival game the argument more or less goes invalid. It's about exploration and "finding-your-own-way-guru-shit". Even though i completely agree it's overpowered and takes a considerable amount away from the survival aspect of the game. The survival aspect of the game is not the main aspect.

 

Fair and valid point.

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I'm not complaining about the mechanic and then going back into my world and exploiting it for all it's worth. Apart from my first world where I used it before figuring out it was just cheap I haven't used it, at least not with Hydrazine.

And we wouldn't bring up a discussion on the forum if we didn't care about the impact it could have on the game experience overall.

Also shoving around what is/isn't the 'main aspect' of what is basically a sandbox 'do what you want' type game but I'd say that since you're in space on uncharted planets then survival is going to actually be a big issue so some balancing of overpowered mechanics would be expected.

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1 hour ago, Nafen said:

I'm not complaining about the mechanic and then going back into my world and exploiting it for all it's worth. Apart from my first world where I used it before figuring out it was just cheap I haven't used it, at least not with Hydrazine.

And we wouldn't bring up a discussion on the forum if we didn't care about the impact it could have on the game experience overall.

Also shoving around what is/isn't the 'main aspect' of what is basically a sandbox 'do what you want' type game but I'd say that since you're in space on uncharted planets then survival is going to actually be a big issue so some balancing of overpowered mechanics would be expected.

 

"Overpowered" in a game where overpowered literally doesn't matter.

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What I dont understand is why people scream exploit at something that is generally done at their own behest. Are we doing pvp here, and at a race to the end?

If some people want to play their game sitting at a single unit, clicking a button over and over, and dragging items to another unit, and clicking buttons over and over... thats their own prerogative.

If someone else thinks thats 'too easy', then they are more then welcome to wander off into the countryside digging for fuel themselves and hauling it back.

While then there are those who just mix things up, plug some fuel in for a trade, go out exploring, doing whatever floats their boat.

 

I agree with further above "Stop trying to decide how other people get to play the game."

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54 minutes ago, Frigidman said:

What I dont understand is why people scream exploit at something that is generally done at their own behest. Are we doing pvp here, and at a race to the end?

If some people want to play their game sitting at a single unit, clicking a button over and over, and dragging items to another unit, and clicking buttons over and over... thats their own prerogative.

If someone else thinks thats 'too easy', then they are more then welcome to wander off into the countryside digging for fuel themselves and hauling it back.

While then there are those who just mix things up, plug some fuel in for a trade, go out exploring, doing whatever floats their boat.

 

I agree with further above "Stop trying to decide how other people get to play the game."

 

Pretty much this yep

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