erikinthebakery

Do we even need Fuel Condensers?

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I know there has been talk and balancing going on around Fuel Condensers, especially when paired with Trade Platforms.

My question is, do we really even need them in the first place?

When starting out on Terran, minable Hydrozine seems quite abundant. So much so, my usual reaction is to ignore it. On top of that, we can get Hydrozine resource pods from Research, we can also trade for them at a pretty good rate. It seems like the Fuel Condenser might be more trouble than it is worth, from a development point of view.

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+1

I agree the fuel condenser makes the resource gathering aspect of the game essentially pointless.  I'm sure others have suggested it, but I'd rather see the fuel condenser convert the gathered hydrozine into a fuel rather than extract it from the atmosphere.  Otherwise, the incentive to explore underground is hampered.

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The way the Fuel Condenser works now should be left as is.  The mined Hydrazine should be replaced procedurally with Resin, Compound, Laterite, Malachite.  What should be balanced is the Trade Platform in relation to Hydrazine.  A one minute cooldown for each Hydrazine canister attached to the Trade Platform.

 

For example if you send up X number of Hydrazine, the cargo drone comes back down in the usual time.  When the drone lands, a countdown timer is displayed instead of that revolving circle for X number of minutes.  So not only would you be penalized for using Hydrazine on the Trade Platform, you would have to wait to use it for trading the other mined resources.

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As far as the fuel condenser goes ... right now we see that it might not fit in , everybody seems to think that it will stay that way but I would like to put up a thought

   1) we are seeing a game with 6 worlds on it at the second....true? ... What's to say that the next world has hydrazine in a minable state?

  2)  Have the deves said in any of their work that all of this is in its final state? ..... Or did the game in its intro say that this is a pre alpha game and in the fact that it is a pre alpha things can and will change?:ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Northstarranger said:

As far as the fuel condenser goes ... right now we see that it might not fit in , everybody seems to think that it will stay that way but I would like to put up a thought

   1) we are seeing a game with 6 worlds on it at the second....true? ... What's to say that the next world has hydrazine in a minable state?

  2)  Have the deves said in any of their work that all of this is in its final state? ..... Or did the game in its intro say that this is a pre alpha game and in the fact that it is a pre alpha things can and will change?:ph34r:

To be fair, while you do bring up some good points, Hydrazine can otherwise be obtained using the trade depot, meaning that as long as a world has any resource at all, it is obtainable.

Edited by Dub

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I was thinking on having 2 different hydrazines, like one called "condensed hydrazine" and the other just "hydrazine" depending on where you got it. Condensed hydrazine would have 0 trade value but can still be used to fuel things.

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It would be nice if there was a game setup screen that would allow you to choose what facilities are available to build. So you could remove fuel condensers or trade platforms.  Although right now I just don't build either. If you think its cheating and don't like them. Just don't build them. The game is geared for exploration. If you feel you need those to play, use them. If not just don't build them.

 

 

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At first you are not forced to build it. And the trade platform too.

At second systems like dynamic trade values should decrease such dumb profit significantly.

At last player should be able to protect base from inability to play (fly away).

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3 minutes ago, Sad Brother said:

At first you are not forced to build it. And the trade platform too.

At second systems like dynamic trade values should decrease such dumb profit significantly.

At last player should be able to protect base from inability to play (fly away).

I understand you are not forced to use it, or the trade platform. But what justifies its inclusion and continued development time?

In about 10 minutes on a save that was only about 2 hours old I was able to get a space ship full of fuel that allowed me to go to Exotic (with the required jumps inbetween), take back off from Exotic and land again, then leave to Arid, land, take off and head back to Terran. While the potential to impact someone's ability to leave a non-Terran planet is there, it doesn't seem that far fetched that there is a workaround.

 

15 hours ago, Pi_ said:

The way the Fuel Condenser works now should be left as is.  The mined Hydrazine should be replaced procedurally with Resin, Compound, Laterite, Malachite.  What should be balanced is the Trade Platform in relation to Hydrazine.  A one minute cooldown for each Hydrazine canister attached to the Trade Platform.

 

For example if you send up X number of Hydrazine, the cargo drone comes back down in the usual time.  When the drone lands, a countdown timer is displayed instead of that revolving circle for X number of minutes.  So not only would you be penalized for using Hydrazine on the Trade Platform, you would have to wait to use it for trading the other mined resources.

That seems like a lot of work and rebalancing for a minimal gain, and I'm not sure the cooldown really makes sense in the setting.

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11 minutes ago, erikinthebakery said:

I understand you are not forced to use it, or the trade platform. But what justifies its inclusion and continued development time?

 

I would like to argue that the inclusion and continued development time for this feature is critical to younger players. This is my 5 year olds favorite game right now.  I enjoy it as well. It is a great game to play together.  But when he is playing on his own, he needs is to be much easier than I do. If not he easily strands himself on other planets.  

These are good features for younger players. But I think there should be a way to switch them off to increase the difficulty.

 

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43 minutes ago, erikinthebakery said:

But what justifies its inclusion and continued development time?

Initially it was factory to make fuel from mined water bottles. So development and inclusion efforts does not counts.

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26 minutes ago, mardok said:

I would like to argue that the inclusion and continued development time for this feature is critical to younger players. This is my 5 year olds favorite game right now.  I enjoy it as well. It is a great game to play together.  But when he is playing on his own, he needs is to be much easier than I do. If not he easily strands himself on other planets.  

These are good features for younger players. But I think there should be a way to switch them off to increase the difficulty.

 

I agree! Difficulty toggle should be available. From older engineer nerds who want more of challenge like myself to 5 year olds. 

That would raise the question though, if on a higher difficulty are their incentives or rewards to do so?

Side note: I think there is a real opportunity to teach younger players science concepts

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1 hour ago, mardok said:

I would like to argue that the inclusion and continued development time for this feature is critical to younger players. This is my 5 year olds favorite game right now.  I enjoy it as well. It is a great game to play together.  But when he is playing on his own, he needs is to be much easier than I do. If not he easily strands himself on other planets.  

Valid concern (my 5 and 7 year olds love it too). That said, is it so hard to find/acquire Hydrozine? For me, finding it in the wild is as easy as making a Fuel Condenser! It seems on par with the other things players (even little ones) need to find to be able to fly a shuttle/space ship. The trick is remembering to put enough into the ship.

I guess I see it at best as equal, at worst as an opportunity for a teachable moment.

Edited by erikinthebakery

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1 hour ago, mikebgator said:

That would raise the question though, if on a higher difficulty are their incentives or rewards to do so?

 

The rewards right now, are because you can.  But I hope that some sort of scoring system, or objectives system would go into game play. Especially in Multiplayer.  Possibly launch a game with a time limit or objective.  In single player it would be to see if you could do it on that difficulty, or for a high score. And in multiplayer it would be to see who does it first or has the highest score.

Some examples could be:

Start a multiplayer game with No Trucks, No Spaceships, and No Trade Platforms. The first player to have a Habitat on the moon wins.

Or  

Start a multiplayer game with no Hydrozine Condensers.  The player with the most Hydrozine collected at their base after 1 hour wins.

Or

Start a single player game. No Spaceships. Game is complete when you build a truck on another planet.

 

Could be a nice achievement system for steam too.

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3 hours ago, Dub said:

To be fair, while you do bring up some good points, Hydrazine can otherwise be obtained using the trade depot, meaning that as long as a world has any resource at all, it is obtainable.

have you ever had your trade platform go out and forget to return (that should be fixed now but things happen ) if some of the people have their way both the fuel condenser and the trade platform would be gone . My point is that the final game may take many turns on many subjects  and many people will make tons of suggestions on the fuel condenser and the trade platform but the game in its current state is in a constant change till the devs decide what stays and what goes. Till then all of our points are just here for the deves to decide upon.

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One of the items on the road map is Player Driven Economy. When that comes out the trade value should fall until trading is only worthwhile for people who want to build large power infrastructure and specialize in hydrazine production. As a result, the price will be low enough that others will trade for it instead of producing, creating some demand.  Meanwhile, the devs may manually simulate the adjustments in response to major trends.

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